10-01-2004 16:40									#61
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I just realised that earth doesn't rise as seen from moon since moon tidally locked to earth.



**** it. Let's build that supercollider.

	10-01-2004 16:53									#62
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk We could dome over one of the larger craters, give it a good gas mix and a lake, and put your beachchair there...

Yes i think making small pockets of comfortable domed enviroments will be the practical(!) way to go. I imagine that the huge amount of economic effort to make it work would rule out it becoming a socialist paradise, unfortunately.
It would have to be an even more capitalist venture than what we see on earth today - which might have its advantages; as maybe it would persude all the most ruthless money orientated individuals to go off-world and then we would get the space and time to actually save our one and only habitable planet, before its too late and all the trees are gone/sea's poisonous/air polluted/animals dead etc.

So i'm for colonising the planets we can and shiping the A**holes to make their fortunes, it might be our only hope of long term survival

	10-01-2004 16:56									#63
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You see? Everbody's happier this way!

	10-01-2004 17:10									#64
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Just imagine how bad the beer would be there though.
What ever they'll have to drink there has GOT to be better than soju.

	10-01-2004 17:26									#65
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You'll drink your synthale and you'll like it, citizen!!!

	10-01-2004 17:53									#66
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I just realised that earth doesn't rise as seen from moon since moon tidally locked to earth. **** it. Let's build that supercollider.

Hmph.

One

Two

Three

?

	10-01-2004 17:57									#67
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There's a perfectly reasonable explanation for that.

	10-01-2004 17:57									#68
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It wobbles. Only a very small segment of the longitudes of the moon will experience earthrise (IIRC something like 5%)

	10-01-2004 17:59									#69
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How long until the Earth is tidally locked to the moon?

	10-01-2004 18:00									#70
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IIRC 1.5 billion years.

	10-01-2004 18:02									#71
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The angular momentum of the Earth will be transferred to orbital velocity of the earth-moon pair.

This will increase the earth-moon distance to the point where rotation has period of ~50 days as opposed to 28 (again, IIRC)

	10-01-2004 18:02									#72
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While the moon is tidally locked, and the moon's rotational period is equal to the orbital period, it must be noted that it's orbital speed within any given period is not constant, due to fact that the orbit is elliptical - it speeds up as it nears Earth, and slows down as it recedes from Earth.

As such, the moon appears rotate ever so slightly back - and - forth each month.

	10-01-2004 18:03									#73
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But then, Kitty just told you that.

	10-01-2004 18:04									#74
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You gave fuller explanation.

	10-01-2004 18:08									#75
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Good work, both.

	10-01-2004 18:10									#76
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Why, thank you.

	10-01-2004 22:10									#77
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I wonder how land apportionament would be handled. Would it be like the early U.S., with lots of fraud and speculation, or would there be more oversight?

	10-01-2004 22:19									#78
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Doc
Terraforming it might seem impossible now. But, as they say, "necessity is the mother of invention," and there will be a necessity of the Earth being overcrowded enough that you can't throw a rock in any direction anywhere without hitting a guy.

Starchild

quote: Is my quality of life on Mars significantly better than I would have on Earth? I don't want one of those damn frontier communities with weirdly asymmetrical economies and no doctors. Pioneers die young. Let Mars settle down into civilised society for a few hundred years and then I'd think about it.

You'll probably be dead after a few hundred years.

Mad Monk

quote: Think the of view from Lunar Observatories once that extra-thick atmosphere is in place.

Just keep a satellite in orbit to do that.

quote: Then there's the whole "ecology" thing.

If you mean preserving a bunch of dead rock, well, **** it.
If you mean preserving a well-and-alive Earthlike planet after terraforming it, well, keep it good enough that humans can survive (and it's not a hellhole either).

(Actually, if anyone doesn't mind keeping together an un-touched spot of moon land, or then also an un-touched spot of terraformed moon-land, that would be okay too)

	10-01-2004 22:22									#79
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quote: I wonder how land apportionament would be handled.

Depends on the demand at the time, and how much land is worth on Earth. If there's not a lot of demand, hell, give everyone as much as they feel they can keep up. (OTOH though there will probably be a lot of demand, so might want to give everyone smaller places.)

	11-01-2004 00:47									#80
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Emigrate to Mars?

* Adagio starts packing his bags

When did you say we'll leave?

	11-01-2004 01:18									#81
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I would love to move to move to Mars and be the chief terraformer, like Sax Russel in Red Mars.

I read in a book on martian geology that the atmosphere is in a very delicate equalibrium, if we pump up the temperature near the poles by 4 degrees Celsius the planet will go into a mild runaway greenhouse effect that will melt the icecaps, putting about 50 mb of CO2 in the atmosphere, and then CO2 will start comming out of the permafrost, in about 250 years we will have a 400 mb CO2 atmosphere. Soon the water in the permafrost will begin to melt and the northern lowlands and the 2 huge impact basins will become icy seas. Lichens, Cyanobacteria, and tundra and alpine plants will thrive in the CO2-rich atmosphere, adding oxygen. the increased moisture in the atmosphere will compensate for the drop in the CO2 lost to plants, so we don't loose the greenhouse. Importing nitrogen will thicken the atmoshere more, making it even warmer. Methane released by archaebacteria will also warm things up. Then we must make a switch over from a greenhouse of CO2 to one of other gases so humans can breathe the air, more then 15 mb of CO2 is toxic for mammals to breathe.

Contruction costs will be quite low on an colonized Mars because the planet is very rich in Iron (think red ) and aluminum. It's 2 asteroid-moons are rich in carbon for plasics and carbon nanotubes and bucky-ball fullerenes.

	11-01-2004 01:52									#82
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Move to Mars? mmmmmm... Let me think. A place with a desert of red rocks and red dust that never ends, with just the company of a bunch of people, and losing the majority of the commodities we have in Earth?

There must be a good reason to go. But right now I cannot see it...

They could make "Big Brother Mars version" and show in TV how the first settlers live...

BTW: I assume you are talkig about present Mars, not some hypotethical Mars of the future.

	11-01-2004 03:15									#83
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Where wou you guys like to live on Mars? I would like in the badlands-like area on the eastern end of Mariner Valley. It has some very interesting geology, it has been carved by flash floods caused from when volcanic activity melted the prermfrost countless times for BILLIONS of years. the landscape is probably similar tothe channeled scablands in Washington and Oregon.

	11-01-2004 04:11									#84
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Valles Marineris.

Easy to build a radiation shielded home, great view, ride the elevator to your farm, go to the bottom to check on your fish farm. And Zeppelins would be a great transportation method in the canyon system!

I'd love to open the first real restaurant on Mars and see how long it takes for a genuine local cuisine to be created.

EDIT: and not blimps I'm talking GIANT ZEPPELINS, 1000m in length.

	11-01-2004 04:55									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Odin I would love to move to move to Mars and be the chief terraformer, like Sax Russel in Red Mars. I read in a book on martian geology that the atmosphere is in a very delicate equalibrium, if we pump up the temperature near the poles by 4 degrees Celsius the planet will go into a mild runaway greenhouse effect that will melt the icecaps, putting about 50 mb of CO2 in the atmosphere, and then CO2 will start comming out of the permafrost, in about 250 years we will have a 400 mb CO2 atmosphere. Soon the water in the permafrost will begin to melt and the northern lowlands and the 2 huge impact basins will become icy seas. Lichens, Cyanobacteria, and tundra and alpine plants will thrive in the CO2-rich atmosphere, adding oxygen. the increased moisture in the atmosphere will compensate for the drop in the CO2 lost to plants, so we don't loose the greenhouse. Importing nitrogen will thicken the atmoshere more, making it even warmer. Methane released by archaebacteria will also warm things up. Then we must make a switch over from a greenhouse of CO2 to one of other gases so humans can breathe the air, more then 15 mb of CO2 is toxic for mammals to breathe. Contruction costs will be quite low on an colonized Mars because the planet is very rich in Iron (think red ) and aluminum. It's 2 asteroid-moons are rich in carbon for plasics and carbon nanotubes and bucky-ball fullerenes.

How does one raise the temperature of the poles four degees C?

	11-01-2004 05:07									#86
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Build what is called a "statite".

Basically a film or polymer deployed from a geo (or areo) synchronous orbiting satellite to make a large lense, constantly focussing solar energy on an area.

Then make LOTS of them, and as big as possible. They are very flimsy and thin, so that they can be perforated a lot by micrometeors without curling up.

A couple hundreds of those and you'd be in business.

	11-01-2004 05:30									#87
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One long-term project I'd be interested in seeing is a terraforming project for Venus, using engineered microbes and perhaps solar shades to knock that atmosphere down a peg or two.

	11-01-2004 05:34									#88
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quote: There must be a good reason to go. But right now I cannot see it...

A new frontier! Adventure and discovery! Freedom! Oppurtunity! A new start! Do these mean nothing to you?

quote: One long-term project I'd be interested in seeing is a terraforming project for Venus, using engineered microbes and perhaps solar shades to knock that atmosphere down a peg or two.

Mars is easier, but Venus will be the obvious second choice (well maybe third depending on the Moon).

	11-01-2004 05:39									#89
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The Slogan from Bladerunner:

"A Chance to begin again in a Golden Land of Opportunity and Adventure....LET'S GO!!! ...to the Colonies!"

This is the other Blimpvert from Bladerunner.

	11-01-2004 07:00									#90
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk One long-term project I'd be interested in seeing is a terraforming project for Venus, using engineered microbes and perhaps solar shades to knock that atmosphere down a peg or two.

good luck.