Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > Bush 'planned Iraq war pre-9/11'
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!

bottom of page
  
Author
Thread   
Pages (6): [ 1   2   3   4   5   6   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 15:03
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#91 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Once again Bush is revealed as a total cretin.

One day it might come out that Bush knew all about 9/11 and let it happen so as to insure his re-election.

Improbable? Yes.

But if it ever happened you could be be 100% certain that all the usual suspects would be on here defending Bush to the hilt for his vision and "political savvy" and attempting to pin the blame on Clinton.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 15:05
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#92 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote:
Originally posted by NeOmega

American World Domination is in their minds justified, because America is so darn good.


The sooner the American right are cured of this ridiculous fantasy, the better for humanity. The US simply can't afford the diplomatic, political and economic costs of such an insane scheme.

They really should quit while they're ahead, or there'll be tears before bedtime.

DaShi is offline DaShi
Prince
The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 16:41
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#93 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Once again Bush is revealed as a total cretin.


How so?

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 17:27
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#94 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by DaShi

How so?


They seem to have said or implied the following sequentially over the last year and a half.

1. The people who believe in the PNAC stuff are conspiracy whackos.

2. This is a war about enforcing UN resolutions!

3. (after acting in defiance of the UN). This is about ridding Iraq of WMDs!

4. (no WMDS) After 9/11 this is about protecting America from terrorists!!

5. (no connection between Al Quaeda and Sadddam). This is about installing democracy to prevent terrorism!!!!

Then O'Neill spills the beans. The only plan on the table when Bush took over was the PNAC one or one of its variants - and that was when all this crap started - before 9/11 and before the war on terror.

Bush is a cretin because his excuses have fallen apart again.

Chalk up another win for the left.

The Andy-Man is offline The Andy-Man
Prince
Tory Party of 'Poly
Jul 2001
time: 05:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 18:14
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#95 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

Agathon, it is very hard for a country to quit while it is ahead, they usually have a tendancy to keep on trying, even when they are about as significant as Belgium

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 18:29
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#96 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote:
Originally posted by The Andy-Man
Agathon, it is very hard for a country to quit while it is ahead, they usually have a tendancy to keep on trying, even when they are about as significant as Belgium


Well it may be hard, but the fall will be greater. Bush is painting the US into a corner. When my grandparents, who are both long time Thatcherites, start sounding like Noam Chomsky, you know that anti-Bushism is now in play as a political platform.

I mean, it's weird. People I've known all my life as conservatives are now sincerely using terms like "Imperialism" in everyday conversation.

At the moment Bush is playing a game of snakes and ladders in which most of the ladders have been removed. People in the US won't notice, but almost everyone else is as pissed as hell and will do their best to make things difficult.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 18:34 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#97 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

I mentioned it before, but my parents (the most apolitical people in the world) now constantly grouse about Bush.

I feel so proud of them.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 18:44
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#98 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I mentioned it before, but my parents (the most apolitical people in the world) now constantly grouse about Bush.

I feel so proud of them.


Do they Chomsky?

My grandfather honestly spoke (loudly) along these lines.

quote:
You aren't for that war, are you? It's an outrage... Do they really think we don't know what all this is about? Oil and money! That pack of despicable liars... The US is the biggest enemy of democracy and danger to world peace... I hope Blair gets the boot!! etc. etc.

The Andy-Man is offline The Andy-Man
Prince
Tory Party of 'Poly
Jul 2001
time: 05:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 18:45
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#99 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

quote:
Originally posted by Agathon


Well it may be hard, but the fall will be greater. Bush is painting the US into a corner. When my grandparents, who are both long time Thatcherites, start sounding like Noam Chomsky, you know that anti-Bushism is now in play as a political platform.

I mean, it's weird. People I've known all my life as conservatives are now sincerely using terms like "Imperialism" in everyday conversation.

At the moment Bush is playing a game of snakes and ladders in which most of the ladders have been removed. People in the US won't notice, but almost everyone else is as pissed as hell and will do their best to make things difficult.


I am more inclined to think that htis all means bush is offending even right wing opinion, though i wouildn't blame him for the US decline and its inevitable reaction to this decline. If history means anything, no matter who is in charge nothing will change.

The Andy-Man is offline The Andy-Man
Prince
Tory Party of 'Poly
Jul 2001
time: 05:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 18:46
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#100 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

[quote[Do they really think we don't know what all this is about? Oil and money![/quote]

I know a few poeple omn the right saying this aswell

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 18:51 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#101 Report this post to a moderator
Remove this text

quote:
Originally posted by Agathon


Do they Chomsky?

My grandfather honestly spoke (loudly) along these lines.



They're more on: "I can't stand that little monkey. They think they can go around invading anyone they want. I wonder if he cares how many people he kills"

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 19:06
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#102 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

quote:
Originally posted by The Andy-Man


I am more inclined to think that htis all means bush is offending even right wing opinion, though i wouildn't blame him for the US decline and its inevitable reaction to this decline. If history means anything, no matter who is in charge nothing will change.


I'll recommend an excellent book that IMHO everyone should read. It's called Rogue Nation by Clyde Prestowitz. Prestowitz is a dyed in the wool conservative who worked for the Reagan administration. In short his Tory credentials are about as good as they get. Yet reading his book I found myself nodding at almost every page. It's all just common sense really. It confirmed my thinking that everyone with a modicum of rationality should oppose US unilateralism, Americans included.


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=books&n=507846

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 19:07
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#103 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse


They're more on: "I can't stand that little monkey. They think they can go around invading anyone they want. I wonder if he cares how many people he kills"


He does look like a monkey, though. And he stoops. Never trust a stooper!!!

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 19:11
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#104 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Here's a quote from the conclusion of that book

quote:
"The imperial project of the so-called neoconservatives is not conservatism at all but radicalism, egotism and adventuratism articulated in the stirring rhetoric of traditonal patriotism. Real conservatives have never been messianic or doctrinal. The very essense of conservatism, which the neoconservatives constantly preach, is limited government. Yet the imperial projects they are proposing will greatly increase the role of government, both at home and abroad ... This is not conservatism. It is Big Government.


Having said that the previous couple of hundred pages is well argued and attempts to appeal to the better natures of both sides.

SpencerH is offline SpencerH
King
Co-Ruler of my patch of land south of Birmingham Alabama
Feb 2002
time: 23:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 19:15
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#105 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote:
Originally posted by GePap
I mean, Bush has said that he doesn;t read newspapers, and that he gets all his information from purely objective sources, his advisors. I mean, come on!

So, the description of a Blind man in a room full of deaf people is pretty good.


I stopped using the news as sources of info (other than the event itself although even that can be questionable) in the early 80's. It was amazing to watch the reporting - counter reporting - spin - counterspin on events where I knew what had happened (since I had access to other sources). Nothing is objective. The only reason to read the news is to gauge what others are thinking about the event and usually you can predict what they will say anyway.

oedo is offline oedo
Prince
and the revolution
Feb 2000
time: 05:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 19:15 Visit oedo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#106 Report this post to a moderator
Tired of ads?

quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
One day it might come out that Bush knew all about 9/11 and let it happen so as to insure his re-election.

one must be a complete fool believing that Bush had nothing to do with the 911 attacks.
with "Go find me a way to do this.", the hope for "catastrophic and catalyzing event- like a new Pearl Harbour" documented in the PNAC, the fact that 911 was preventable and shoud have been prevented (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003...ain589137.shtml) and the fact the the White House id doing everything to prevent any serious investigation...

how can there be any doubt left?

DaShi is offline DaShi
Prince
The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:33
Red face  Old Post 13-01-2004 19:23
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#107 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote:
Originally posted by Agathon


They seem to have said or implied the following sequentially over the last year and a half.

1. The people who believe in the PNAC stuff are conspiracy whackos.

2. This is a war about enforcing UN resolutions!

3. (after acting in defiance of the UN). This is about ridding Iraq of WMDs!

4. (no WMDS) After 9/11 this is about protecting America from terrorists!!

5. (no connection between Al Quaeda and Sadddam). This is about installing democracy to prevent terrorism!!!!

Then O'Neill spills the beans. The only plan on the table when Bush took over was the PNAC one or one of its variants - and that was when all this crap started - before 9/11 and before the war on terror.

Bush is a cretin because his excuses have fallen apart again.

Chalk up another win for the left.


A bitter win then with so many dead and a world institution made a fool of. I suppose the left can celebrate this victory.

Bush probably had as much a role in the 9/11 attacks as Saddam did. That's why the left argues that he did, just like the right argued that Saddam did.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 19:30
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#108 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote:
Originally posted by oedo

one must be a complete fool believing that Bush had nothing to do with the 911 attacks.
with "Go find me a way to do this.", the hope for "catastrophic and catalyzing event- like a new Pearl Harbour" documented in the PNAC, the fact that 911 was preventable and shoud have been prevented (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003...ain589137.shtml) and the fact the the White House id doing everything to prevent any serious investigation...

how can there be any doubt left?



Look, I know about all that stuff and I think Bush is a worthless sack of ****, but I balk at pinning that on him, especially since there is no real evidence of a link.

On the other hand, if it did come out I'd buy a ticket to Washington to join the lynch mob.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 19:33
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#109 Report this post to a moderator
Got spare money?

quote:
Originally posted by DaShi

A bitter win then with so many dead and a world institution made a fool of. I suppose the left can celebrate this victory.


Well, add to that the largest protest movement in history and an increasing push among ordinary citizens for international laws with teeth and more representative democracy and I don't think it's so bad.

I can't think of any other event which has made people "think globally".

What's even more encouraging is the links with the Seattle movement as people realize that it all boils down to effective representative democracy vs. special interests.

DaShi is offline DaShi
Prince
The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 19:38
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#110 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

Perhaps, I don't live in the US anymore, so I don't see it. I certainly don't see it in China.

Maybe Bush's **** ups will be the kick in the ass that most Americans need. But with the special interests firmly in power, and Americans concerned more about where their next paycheck is coming from, I don't think it is enough.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 19:44
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#111 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote:
Originally posted by DaShi
Perhaps, I don't live in the US anymore, so I don't see it. I certainly don't see it in China.

Maybe Bush's **** ups will be the kick in the ass that most Americans need. But with the special interests firmly in power, and Americans concerned more about where their next paycheck is coming from, I don't think it is enough.


I don't think it's them. The change will be elsewhere. The US has a lot of diplomatic clout, but recent events are making other countries think twice. It's like when all the little kids group together to protect themselves from the big kid. If Britain starts to lurch the other way, which is not out of the question given Bliar's disastrous performances recently, then the US will lose influence.

Another one to watch is Korea. The Koreans are already pissed off with Bush's attitude toward the North and may well increase their own independent diplomatic efforts which promise better returns.

Whaleboy is offline Whaleboy
Prince
Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 19:47 Visit Whaleboy's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#112 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I don't think this thread is telling us anything new. Its an open secret at the best of times that the USA had designs on Iraq since Gulf War I, and the PNAC were looking for "a new Pearl Harbour" to roll our US influence abroad so this is not a surprise.

oedo is offline oedo
Prince
and the revolution
Feb 2000
time: 05:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 19:49 Visit oedo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#113 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Look, I know about all that stuff and I think Bush is a worthless sack of ****, but I balk at pinning that on him, especially since there is no real evidence of a link.

if we use the same standards on them as they use on every Guantanamo prisoneer, then we could easily call the existence of their previous knowledge as proven.

and as long as the White House and Pentagon are the ones who may decide what´s going to be investigated about 911 and what not, there will hardly any evidence beyond any doubt rise up. however, there are countless of suspicious circumstances against them. so even if they would turn out "innocent", investigating their possible preknowledges and intentions would be more than just reasonable.

see, I would feel much better, if I could be at least somewhat certain that the White House was not involvend in the 911 plannings at all and can´t be blamed for the attacks.

oedo is offline oedo
Prince
and the revolution
Feb 2000
time: 05:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 19:54 Visit oedo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#114 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
I don't think this thread is telling us anything new. Its an open secret at the best of times that the USA had designs on Iraq since Gulf War I, and the PNAC were looking for "a new Pearl Harbour" to roll our US influence abroad so this is not a surprise.

truly, the initial article doesn´t teach us anything new. but by the fact that a former White House member comes out with all that stuff, which only liberals and lefties spoke out before, the whole issue gains a new quality.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 19:57
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#115 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I love being right.

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 19:59
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#116 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote:
Originally posted by SpencerH


I stopped using the news as sources of info (other than the event itself although even that can be questionable) in the early 80's. It was amazing to watch the reporting - counter reporting - spin - counterspin on events where I knew what had happened (since I had access to other sources). Nothing is objective. The only reason to read the news is to gauge what others are thinking about the event and usually you can predict what they will say anyway.


And you think that anyone is different, includng individuals? A lot of times I can guess how you will spin, counterspin things, how your natural biases will affect what you say: do you think this is different from what I do? or his advisors would do?

The porblem is that by limiting himself to a small number of sources that have shared biases the president simply does not get to see any side other than that his advisors hold. If Kennedy had been like this in 1962 we would have invaded Cuba and started WW3.

You can only make well informed decisions if you have all sides and all arguements: this is a mand stating he only get one side, and that is good enough for him..well, fine for him, but not for the Precidency.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 20:09
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#117 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote:
Originally posted by Zkribbler


The evidence cited by Bush was really thin: (1) a Czech intelligence officer claims he twice saw one of the hijackers meeting with one of Saddam's spy masters in Prague; (2) there was an al Qaeda training camp in the Kurdish-controlled part of Iraq; and (3) an al Qaeda official from the training camp got sick and was treated in a Bagdad hospital and was not turned over to the Americans when we demanded him.

Yep, that's grounds for war.


Zkribbler, again the question is to you is whether this evidence is false, because you stated that Bush's claim that there was a link between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein was false.

Also, to be fair to Bush, he cited Saddam's long support the terrorism and his support of suicide bombings in Israel by paying $25,000 to the families of suicide bombers.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 20:17
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#118 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote:
Originally posted by shawnmmcc
Ned, your missing my point. Rumsfeld has not won two conflicts. In both conflicts after the major field operations against organized forces were won, we did not have sufficient occupation forces - MP's, civilian liason, rebuilding, etc. to win the peace. We do not have the forces to make sure that western style individual rights democracy will occur in either country. In fact, it looks extremely likely in both cases that Sharia will be ensconced in law, and since in both countries you have groups with definitive differences in what exactly constitutes "kosher" Sharia (I just couldn't resist) the outlook for these so-called democracies loore like Cromwell's England.

In fact, and this goes back to the 80's, and both Mssrs. Gore and Gingritch buy into this one as well as Clinton and the Republican leadership, our contracting out suppport services has made life miserable for our GI's in Iraq, and made rebuilding a much larger mess than Germany or Japan. It seems that the employees of civilian contractors don't like to get shot at (low wage, no life insurance, low or no benefits, well duh), so the work is being done on a piecemeal basis, and often not being done nearly as fast as the older army support services did. It's why we've had soldiers in Iraq without running water or showers for almost a year, and substandard food. Remember, you get what you pay for.

Ned, did you go through the slide show? Go through that link. We can start a thread on the reoganization, instead of half-hijacking this one. Of course the entire issue of Iraq, Bush, terrorism, Rumsfeld et al is complex, and is interconnected, which is why we keep returning to all these interrelated issues.


No, I could not access the link.

Shawn, it seems that your criticism of Rumsfeld is centered on the lack of size of US forces. We seem to have a adequate force to win wars but not too carryout subsequent operations without tying down too much of our combat power. We also seem to want to preserve all available troops for combat operations by contracting out other services that once we performed by the Army.

The question then is, how did we get to this size of an army? Was the Rumsfeld or was it -- Clinton?

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 20:23 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#119 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

Who is overextending? BushII or Clinton?

Maybe Clinton didn't expect his successor to fight a half-dozen wars at once.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-01-2004 20:24 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#120 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Remember the Peace Dividend? Everybody wanted a cut in US military spending, including the American taxpayer.

 
Pages (6): [ 1   2   3   4   5   6   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:33.
Apolyton Time is 00:33.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
archivepost
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0669 seconds (91.68% PHP - 8.32% MySQL) with 31 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net