13-01-2004 20:25									#121
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quote: Originally posted by NeOmega What wars? Oh, let me guess, you believe Bush when he says Iraq is over and won. And you also believe Afghanistan is a stable and prosperous democracy. Both wars have hardly even started, but in typical short sighted, short attention spanned American fashion, you think they are over. TWO YEARS FROM NOW soldiers will still be dying daily in Iraq, mark my words.

NeOmega, I think you doth protest too much. Your criticisms are entirely directed at post major combat operations.

Clearly our deficiencies here relate in many ways to the size of our combat forces. We simply do not he had an army large enough to occupy both Afghanistan and Iraq while leaving enough combat power left over to provide a credible deterrent elsewhere. But this is hardly Rumsfeld fault, is it? The size of the army we currently have was set under Bill Clinton.

	13-01-2004 20:28									#122
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Maybe Clinton didn't expect his successor to fight a half-dozen wars at once.

Hati, Kosovo, & Bosnia. I count at least three during Clinton's time.

	13-01-2004 20:30									#123
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc Let's evaluate Iraq. If Bush's policy was regime change, without paying any attention to what resulted afterwards, then the man is a fool and learned nothing from history.

Let us be clear and let us be fair: The policy régime change in Iraq was set not by George Bush, but by Bill Clinton and by a joint resolution of Congress in 1998.

	13-01-2004 20:34									#124
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Yes, he's good at PR. Ned, you're WAY too trusting.

Skywalker, and you're way too eager to jump in with a personal attack.

The information about Rumsfeld requesting that the US soldier be a person of the year and not himself was directly from Time itself.

	13-01-2004 20:37									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Once again Bush is revealed as a total cretin. One day it might come out that Bush knew all about 9/11 and let it happen so as to insure his re-election. Improbable? Yes. But if it ever happened you could be be 100% certain that all the usual suspects would be on here defending Bush to the hilt for his vision and "political savvy" and attempting to pin the blame on Clinton.

If Bush is a cretin, so is Bill Clinton and the United States Congress, for Iraqi régime change was the policy that began in 1998 with Bill Clinton and a joint resolution of United States Congress.

	13-01-2004 20:41									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The sooner the American right are cured of this ridiculous fantasy, the better for humanity. The US simply can't afford the diplomatic, political and economic costs of such an insane scheme. They really should quit while they're ahead, or there'll be tears before bedtime.

Extrapolation to the extreme!

As I mentioned before, the Iraqi régime change was a policy set by Bill Clinton and United States Congress in 1998.

Everything else is fantasy dreamed up by the likes of General Clark.

	13-01-2004 20:46									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Extrapolation to the extreme! As I mentioned before, the Iraqi r�gime change was a policy set by Bill Clinton and United States Congress in 1998. Everything else is fantasy dreamed up by the likes of General Clark.

And the National Security Policy of the United States by all accounts.

	13-01-2004 20:49									#128
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The porblem is that by limiting himself to a small number of sources that have shared biases the president simply does not get to see any side other than that his advisors hold. If Kennedy had been like this in 1962 we would have invaded Cuba and started WW3.

Kennedy did rely on a small number of advisors, particularly, his brother Bobby.

Bush does seem to have two or three warring camps in his regime that are constantly vying for power and influence.

I leave it for you to figure out who they are.

	13-01-2004 20:55									#129
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Who is overextending? BushII or Clinton? Maybe Clinton didn't expect his successor to fight a half-dozen wars at once.

KrazyHorse, there could be some valid criticism of Rumsfeld for not asking to expand the size of the army.

Also, KrazyHorse, it's not the finding of the war that is the issue, is it?

	13-01-2004 20:58									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon And the National Security Policy of the United States by all accounts.

That doctrine changed only after 9/11 in that we will now consider preemptive war.

A war against Iraq was all but decided as American policy well prior 9/11.

	13-01-2004 20:59									#131
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Hati, Kosovo, & Bosnia. I count at least three during Clinton's time.

Bosnia was not a large-scale commitment at time of Kosovo, AFAIK and Haiti was never much of one. I could be wrong, but I really doubt Clinton had anything like half the current number of US troops in combat situations at any one time.

	13-01-2004 21:01									#132
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Hati, Kosovo, & Bosnia. I count at least three during Clinton's time.

and Somalia??

	13-01-2004 21:05									#133
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You were in Somalia in 1998?

	13-01-2004 21:05									#134
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We're getting there. I knew I missed a few.

	13-01-2004 21:06									#135
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At once, Dino. Perhaps you missed that one.

	13-01-2004 21:08									#136
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse At once, Dino. Perhaps you missed that one.

You're arguing for pacing ourselves when engaging in "warmongering"?

	13-01-2004 21:09									#137
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Duh. All the smart hegemons are doing it.

	13-01-2004 21:11									#138
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Smart hegemons wouldn't have gotten involved in half of the conflicts we've inserted ourselves into.

	13-01-2004 21:12									#139
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Got to put the fear of God into the natives once in a while. At least that's what a certain submariner friend of ours believes.

	13-01-2004 21:18									#140
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse You were in Somalia in 1998?

You mean you didn't see me reporting the news for CNN in Somalia??

	13-01-2004 21:23									#141
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Were you the one with his head on a pike or the one whose scrotum had just been ripped off?

	13-01-2004 21:24									#142
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Actually, I got my arms torn off, but then someone glued them back on for me.

	13-01-2004 21:56									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Let us be clear and let us be fair: The policy régime change in Iraq was set not by George Bush, but by Bill Clinton and by a joint resolution of Congress in 1998.

Who cares!? Does Bush have to do everything Bill Clinton did? Is he just Clintons little lap dog? Blaming it on Clinton is irrelevant. Some people didn't like Clinton either, so everytime a conservative says "Well, Clinton did it! I can do it too!" I say grow up! I don't care that Clinton was stupid too! I don't care that congress was crooked and misled. I really don't care about the D's and the R's. They are both a bunch of powermongering millionaires!

	13-01-2004 22:06									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Ned NeOmega, I think you doth protest too much. Your criticisms are entirely directed at post major combat operations.

No, you are misled. Saddam did not plan to put up much resistance, or he would not have freed all his criminals. The were released to force the US into a policing role earlier. OBL busted a nut when he found out the Americans were coming to him. Al-queada is doing the fighting.... for now. But their continued resistance will force the United States, and Bush, under intense political pressure, to continue to use heavy handed tactics.

Attacks are down 25%, but they are spreading across the country. It is only a matter of time before a true nationalist and jihadist resistance will begin. Then soldiers will start coming home 2 or 3 a day. Worse, it's cycle time. The vets leave, in come the greens... against a determined enemy.

And the cycle of violence will continue. It is pure madness to think "shocking and aweing" a nation into submission is going to prove anything except we can win the first battle. But it will not win hearts and minds. Then to come in and try to regulate with a heavy hand, there will be no pro-US government in place for long.

The Iraqi people are not fooled by who was demanding the UN sanctions. They lived through them.

The war is not over just because your president says it is. The war is over when the killing stops. Name me a war like this one, where the commander in chief proclaimed victory, and yet soldiers kept coming home in body bags by the dozens. Name ONE!

	13-01-2004 22:10									#145
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duh... the only thing accomplished by this revelation is that the Iraq-War-happened-because-of-9-11 dopes are proven they are wrong.

btw, I find it hilarious that once again the Repukes can only attack O'Neill by saying "sour grapes"... but yet, they aren't denying anything he's said.

kudos to whistle blowers

	13-01-2004 22:13									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Kennedy did rely on a small number of advisors, particularly, his brother Bobby.

As confidents who opinions he trusted,,yes. As his sole filters of information form the outside world? NO. That is the point of this Ned.

quote: Bush does seem to have two or three warring camps in his regime that are constantly vying for power and influence. I leave it for you to figure out who they are.

There were two camps when it cames to Iraq, Powell and Armitage v Rummy and the civs. and the pentagon. And Powell, after a few minor victories, surrendered when it came ot the war. As for the post war, it has been state v Pentagon again, though powell does not seem as active. I have no idea who this third camp would be.

	13-01-2004 22:16									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Bush does seem to have two or three warring camps in his regime that are constantly vying for power and influence.

That was my going to be my point to GePap. In theory, a president could be surrounded by yes-men and I agree that might lead to bad decision making. That situation doesnt appear to be the case with Bush's cabinet though. Making decisions based upon news reports and the opinions of political pundits is no way to run a country either.

	13-01-2004 22:22									#148
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH That was my going to be my point to GePap. In theory, a president could be surrounded by yes-men and I agree that might lead to bad decision making. That situation doesnt appear to be the case with Bush's cabinet though. Making decisions based upon news reports and the opinions of political pundits is no way to run a country either.

Wow, making decisions based on information is a terrible way to make decisons..stick to ideology blind of facts- much clearer.

On one issue was the Bush cabnet split- ow to go to war with Iraq vis a vi the UN. The only real disagreeing cabinet member got canned- and took acts that started this thread.

	13-01-2004 22:26									#149
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Bush in his debates prior to his presidency said he was going to deal with Saddam, there is no secret there. The war with Iraq is directly related to terrorism. 15/19 terrorists came from Saudi, a home to despots along with the most of the Middle East. You have one country that is democratic in the Middle East, Siro I think you know which one that is, you have one news channel and we know how "unbiased" they are, you have an entire region virtually floating on oil, but yet their combined GNP is less than Spain, almost all the money is controlled by the Royal families and dictators, all these variables are rich to seek people, (terrorists) into thinking all their problems are because of the USA. That is why we have Middle East terrorist wanting to kill themselves because there is nothing better and they are going to to heaven to 16 virgins.
As I see it, there are two ways to change this,
1. What Bush did, take the weakest country with an @sshole for a leader and set the seeds of democracy and watch it unfold into other countries, freedom can spread if the people realize it, they sure are not accustomed to it. This will take time but it is worth it, because the alternative is
2.Colonization.

We could have gone into Mecca but we must be prepared to kill millions so I believe this is the right strategy and hopefully freedom will take hold, and this isn't an overnight operation, those of you expecting final results in a year are foolish.
And like a previous poster posted, the kills are going down in Iraq but lets see if it continues.
Don't forget this is a task never before attempted, to change a fundamental life of an entire region.

Either we deal with it now, or even more dire circumstances later.

	13-01-2004 22:38									#150
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Wow, making decisions based on information is a terrible way to make decisons..stick to ideology blind of facts- much clearer.

Wow, making decisions based on faulty information and the lies contained in the news media is a terrible way to make decisions.

quote: On one issue was the Bush cabnet split- ow to go to war with Iraq vis a vi the UN. The only real disagreeing cabinet member got canned- and took acts that started this thread.

Obviously, the president should have political opponents as cabinet members so they can voice their opinions. Maybe everyones opinion should be sought after?