11-01-2004 23:43									#91
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I wasn't supportive of the invasion to begin with even though I did/do believe Iraq had WMD at the time. So I fail to see the point of the question.

	11-01-2004 23:57									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger 1441 did not sanction an invasion. You either follow it or you don't, you can't have both.

Wouldn't you at least agree that "serious consequences" could be interpreted that way? I mean c'mon, what else was left to do? We already had an embargo, Saddam was already internationally isolated, and we already had air patrols over half the country. What did you think that "serious consequences" meant?

	11-01-2004 23:59									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Ned, can't you understand that they are leftovers from the Iran-Iraq war? In any case, the resolution did not plan an outright invasion- the Iraqis would obviously be given the chance (if WMDs had been found) to destroy them.

The resolution puts the responsibility for turning over all WMD on the Iraqis. Not on the UN to find them. There was no provisio for old Iran-Iraq weapons being exempted.

I agree with Ned. Why keep looking for a way to support Saddam when the evidence that he needed to be ousted continues to mount?

	12-01-2004 00:01									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris And let's say they are mostly in an unusable state, buried beneath the desert. Will that prove that Iraq was a threat?

It will certainly provide more proof that they were in violation of 1441.

	12-01-2004 00:31									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris And let's say they are mostly in an unusable state, buried beneath the desert. Will that prove that Iraq was a threat?

No, it will proof that Saddam was a self destrutive egomaniac. Withholding madated infromation and cooperation, and obstructing the Inspections and thus creating rational suspicions, for little purpose beyond feeding his inflated ego.

	12-01-2004 00:33									#96
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO What did you think that "serious consequences" meant?

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	12-01-2004 00:35									#97
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In Res 1441, "serious consequences" was meant to be ambigous, intended for the very purposes of different parties interpreting it and reporting its supposed meaing as they please to their own constituants. It was intend for the thoses aligned one way to say it means armed force, and for thoses aligned a different way to say it does not.

	12-01-2004 01:21									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Ned GePap, et al., I hardly think that burying mortar shells filled with mustard gas is a proper form of destroying weapons of mass instruction.

Correct, it is an imporper way of dispossing of them..Do you think the iraqis would only use proper ways of disposal? Why? Many states burried thier chemical munitions, yet agian, the Japanese example of burrying these munitions in China.

quote: Burying them under sand is not a proper form of storage. Burying things under sand is a known method for hiding things from UN weapons inspectors.

If they are not a proper form of storage, meaning they will be suelss anyway, why hide them? Hmm., logic problem here.

quote: So we find mortar shells buried under sand, and enemies of the United States and/or Bush conclude that they were not burried to hide them from UN weapons inspectors, but to destroy them! And just who is living in the land of conspiracy theories?

Given that these are for all intenet and purposes destroyed- what is your point?

	12-01-2004 01:25									#99
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The simplest way to know that this is not what the admin. meant is to how how little play the admin. has given this discovery. I mean, would not the amdin. want to publicize this find to al four corners of the world if it was the sort of proof they sought? Why wasn't this stash found in the 6 months plus special WMD hunters were looking? Did we not have some clues? Did not iraqis come forward to tell us? (hey, huge stockpile of WMD's are burried over there!)

The admin is dowplaying this BECAUSE it brings back the WMD debate, a debate that right now looks like the Admin. has lost- this is not even a consolation price find, so the amdin. would preffer we move on from WMD's to the liberation theology they now espouse doublequick. Its nice to know though we have true believers here in POly, people who are more Catholic than the Pope when it comes to the admins. public case for war.

	12-01-2004 01:26									#100
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Uh, people, those rounds would probably be more dangerous to the unit firing them than the intended target. A mortar round is different than a conventional artillery round in that it is an single unit - warhead and propellent. You never "store" them that way. Anybody with any kind of military experience would know that their usable lifespan buried under the sand would be short. If the claimed premise of a comprehensive, malice aforethought "hiding" them (for future use) is true, then they would have dug them up IMMEDIATELY on throwing out the inspectors, to see what was salvagable.

If they were trying to hide them, at least initially, it was obviously done on an ad hoc basis. Remember, Saddam figured we would all forget about him, and he would have wanted them available for domestic use (see my thread about turning him over to the Kurds). After this much time I seriously doubt though that anybody had been keeping track of them, for the reason stated above. Also, accountability for mortar rounds - you've got to be joking. A heavy weapons squad with four 120mm mortars (smallest deployable unit I know of - they could have as many as six) can have sustained of 24-48 rounds PER MINUTE (depending on SOP). Saddam used them fairly indiscriminately, so I doubt they kept track of each individual round. How many were produced - I'll bet thousands. This represents what per cent. Come on.

Before some of you start demonizing me, remember that the USA cannot account for around 50 POUNDS of plutonium, in complete violation of several international accords. That is serious WMD. Until I see evidence of a much larger cache of weapons, possibly with nerve agents (real WMD and very handy for terrorists), I will have to side with those who consider this silly. Good god, accounting for each mortar round. This is ridiculous. Occam's razor, or for those of you who aren't familiar with it, "Keep it simple, stupid!"

	12-01-2004 07:19									#101
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For those who keep citing UN Resolution 1441 as a justification for the U.S.' unilateral invasion of Iraq without UN approval:

Is it of any interest to you to know that, of the 1400 or so UN resolutions that the UN has determined have ever been violated, about 90% of the violations have been by the U.S. or Israel? OK, maybe Israel gets targeted for some unfair resolutions, but let's look at who's violating UN law on a regular basis before we use it as a rationale for killing people, OK?

	12-01-2004 07:26									#102
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quote: Originally posted by debeest For those who keep citing UN Resolution 1441 as a justification for the U.S.' unilateral invasion of Iraq without UN approval: Is it of any interest to you to know that, of the 1400 or so UN resolutions that the UN has determined have ever been violated, about 90% of the violations have been by the U.S. or Israel?

Excuses. Are you respecting UN decisions or not?

quote: If they were trying to hide them, at least initially, it was obviously done on an ad hoc basis. Remember, Saddam figured we would all forget about him, and he would have wanted them available for domestic use (see my thread about turning him over to the Kurds). After this much time I seriously doubt though that anybody had been keeping track of them, for the reason stated above. Also, accountability for mortar rounds - you've got to be joking. A heavy weapons squad with four 120mm mortars (smallest deployable unit I know of - they could have as many as six) can have sustained of 24-48 rounds PER MINUTE (depending on SOP). Saddam used them fairly indiscriminately, so I doubt they kept track of each individual round. How many were produced - I'll bet thousands. This represents what per cent. Come on.

I agree with this, and fail to understand why anyone wouldn't.

	12-01-2004 08:41									#103
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Wouldn't you at least agree that "serious consequences" could be interpreted that way?

Yes, it could be, but the exact nature of that "serious consequence" needed to be hammered out by the UNSC. It is not something drawn up by the Duyba cabinet and rubber-stamped by everybody else.

	12-01-2004 08:52									#104
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The only consequence left at the time of drafting was war.

It is a good thing some members of the League of Nations decided to act unilaterally, anyone remeber their view on the dictators of the time. At every turn the UN shows its uselessness, hopefully the next incarnation will be better.

	12-01-2004 10:19									#105
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Extremely instructive post shawnmmcc

50 pounds...very interesting.

NOw, on 1441- what I can;t figure out, and patroklos post is nice and helpfull is that some of the people who say this war is vaid becuase of 1441 are the same people who denoucne the UN system as is:

If 1441 is a valid and legitimate document, that means (or should mean in a sensible world) that the body that wrote and passed it is valid and legitimate. This by extension means that those who whish to act with legitimacy should keep the rules of the body. After all, a vigelantee is a criminal nonetheless, even if they couch their crimes in the name of law enforcement. Now, if some people here dismiss the UN< how can you validate anything on a UN written and approved document? Make up your minds- either the UN is illegitimate, which means 1441 is worth squat, or the UN is legitimate, 1441 bound Iraq, but the UN system also bounds the US.... you can't have both.

	12-01-2004 10:21									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos The only consequence left at the time of drafting was war. It is a good thing some members of the League of Nations decided to act unilaterally, anyone remeber their view on the dictators of the time. At every turn the UN shows its uselessness, hopefully the next incarnation will be better.

Do you know what the league of nations was like? Its laws, and who the members were?

Here is a hint: none of its decsions were binding on states, ever.

	12-01-2004 10:38									#107
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Extremely instructive post shawnmmcc 50 pounds...very interesting.

I agree...and frightening.

quote: If 1441 is a valid and legitimate document, that means (or should mean in a sensible world) that the body that wrote and passed it is valid and legitimate. This by extension means that those who whish to act with legitimacy should keep the rules of the body. After all, a vigelantee is a criminal nonetheless, even if they couch their crimes in the name of law enforcement. Now, if some people here dismiss the UN< how can you validate anything on a UN written and approved document? Make up your minds- either the UN is illegitimate, which means 1441 is worth squat, or the UN is legitimate, 1441 bound Iraq, but the UN system also bounds the US.... you can't have both.

Nothing from the UNSC prevented US invasion...nothing. That's the point. The UNSC itself laid the groundwork...the authorization, although debateable by many, was there. The fact that the UNSC did not believe that there was a world wide will to enforce its resolutions is where the problem is. Once it was clear that the US was going to use 1441 for an invasion then the UNSC disentigrated and thus proves itself useless when spheres of influence are affected. Much as it has with the Arab-Israeli conflict...but that is a completely different story good for another thread. I include it as further proof of the ineffectiveness of the UNSC.

	12-01-2004 11:19									#108
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO It will certainly provide more proof that they were in violation of 1441.

Wasn't resolution 1441 enacted AFTER the war with Iran?

	12-01-2004 11:59									#109
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Resolution 1441:

serious consequences:

If they had meant war, what word do you think would have best described their intentions? I can only think of one... it starts with a w and ends with a r.

Resolution 1441:

Have you ever considered exactly where the UN draws any kind of power from? It draws it from it's body politik. That's it. If a vast majority of the people, and even governments of the world disagree with a war, then trying to lawyer with them that they actually agreed to it is at it's base absurd.

Finally mustard gas shells:

look at them for one second please..... and then with a straight face tell me you believe they were going to bring the world's superpower to it's knees. That they were going to provide any kind of deterrent to anyone, much less actually inflict any damage.
After you have delivered this nonsense, go look in the mirror and try it again.... I guarante you will laugh at absolutely how rediculous you sound trying to appear like a serious contender.

Sorry-ass conservatives, trying to point to these rusted, corroded shells as justification for war. You look pathetic, and would be better off waiting for real evidence.

	12-01-2004 12:05									#110
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Nothing from the UNSC prevented US invasion...nothing.

This is true. By the same token, nothing by the UNSC prevented the Iran invasion.

1441 mentionned "serious consequences" and did NOT mention who would inflict these consequences, nor the timeline. The US led attack on Iraq is exactly as 'legal' as if Iran had decided to use 1441 to justify an invasion of Iraq. None of these countries had been abilitated by the UN to attack Iraq.

	12-01-2004 12:28									#111
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Nothing from the UNSC prevented US invasion...nothing. That's the point.

Granted, but you were looking to legitimise the US invasion in UNSCR 1441, and it simply is not there.

quote: Originally posted by PLATO The UNSC itself laid the groundwork...the authorization, although debateable by many, was there.

Not so, or the US would not have sought an authorisation from the UNSC.

quote: Originally posted by PLATO The fact that the UNSC did not believe that there was a world wide will to enforce its resolutions is where the problem is.

IIRC, the UN weapons inspectors were making progress.

quote: Originally posted by PLATO Once it was clear that the US was going to use 1441 for an invasion then the UNSC disentigrated and thus proves itself useless when spheres of influence are affected.

It is extremely disappointing to see a charter member of the UN ignoring its own pledges. It is also ironic that W used a lie to justify its actions.

quote: Originally posted by PLATO Much as it has with the Arab-Israeli conflict...but that is a completely different story good for another thread. I include it as further proof of the ineffectiveness of the UNSC.

Are we coming to this again? I submit this has nothing to do with the legitimacy of US's attack and occupation on Iraq.

	12-01-2004 14:35									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Ned, can't you understand that they are leftovers from the Iran-Iraq war? In any case, the resolution did not plan an outright invasion- the Iraqis would obviously be given the chance (if WMDs had been found) to destroy them.

OB, I can accept they are leftovers from that time frame.

The question is, why were they buried?

A second question, is how the Danes found them?

The answers to these question will tell us more whether this is some sort of aberation or is sympthomatic of a plan to bury at least some of the Saddam's chemcial weapons.

It seems to me that Saddam must have buried most of his chemical weapons that he did not account for and that were not destroyed during the 90s. The problem he had, of course, is that they corrode while buried and become useless. Thus he maintained the technology to produce the weapons and was prepared to do so once he got the UN off his back.

	12-01-2004 14:58									#113
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quote: Originally posted by VJ Iraq was required in the cease fire treaty to destroy all it's WMD.

And burying chells in a manner in which they quickly become usely doesn't count as destroying them how?

quote: According to my dictionary, weapons of mass destruction are divided into nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. All weapons included in to those categories simply are WMD.

So mace is a WMD now?

quote: I hardly think that burying mortar shells filled with mustard gas is a proper form of destroying weapons of mass instruction.

Its not proper, but it still makes them unusable.

	12-01-2004 16:04									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Ned People who actually believe that this is "normal" storage of chemical weapons have simply got to be living an extreme form of denial motivated by politics.

it's funny. Some years back the administration discovered large sums of money unaccounted for in the pentagon's book keepings. They even 'lost' 4 F16 jet fighters if i'm not mistaken.

now given the tight organisation of your army and compare this to the Iraqi 'army', couldn't it just be possible that these shells were lost during the iraq iran war ?

and finding some 30 shells with chemical agent inside them does not declare them as WoMD. So please, find another justification for your occupation of Iraq.

PS exactely which countries keep the smallpox alive ? now, that's a real threat to the world population. a WoMD so to speak ...

	12-01-2004 16:24									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko And burying chells in a manner in which they quickly become usely doesn't count as destroying them how?

But it doesn't disable the weapon, if you said that they don't cound because they are buried, can the US say they 'destoried' our ICBMs because they are kinda buried.

	12-01-2004 16:36									#116
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quote: But it doesn't disable the weapon

Yes it does. Just look at the photos of them, you think those thing are usuable?

	12-01-2004 18:04									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko And burying chells in a manner in which they quickly become usely doesn't count as destroying them how?

Verifiably destroy is the key part you seem to be missing.

	12-01-2004 18:07									#118
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis PS exactely which countries keep the smallpox alive ?

France.

	13-01-2004 07:45									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The question is, why were they buried?

A likely scenario is the Iraqi troops were leaving in a hurry, perhaps running away from the Iranians, so they buried the shells so the other side couldn't get at them, and those were subsequently forgotten.

	13-01-2004 10:45									#120
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GePap, there are suspicions, fairly strong ones, that a substantial amount of that plutonium ended up in the hands of Israel (in violation of various nuclear anti-proliferation treaties the US has signed). Given what the Isreal was facing at the time, it was reasonable to give them a last ditch weapon, until the 1967 war they were facing a fairly constant threat from the surrounding rulers (all dictatorships of one flavor or another created by France and Britian and/or supported by the Soviet Union) whose stated intent was extermination of the Jews in Palestine. Please note this DOES NOT mean I support the Isreali adminstration of the West Bank, that's another thread and I've posted abundantly on that, it's an outrage.

Ned, mustard gas is low-tech WMD. They used it in WW1. If you have any kind of chemical industry, you can make WW1 level gas. WW2 WMD's include the first really effective nerve agents (one droplet on the skin and you die), the first practical bioweapons, and big klunky nuclear devices. That's why North Korea very likely has all three. It's technology from over 60 year ago! Mustard gas is almost 90 years old. Of course Saddam retained the ability to make the older WMD's.

Small fission bombs, thermonuclear devices, bioweapons with increased virulence, and two part nerve agents (MUCH safer handling) are all post-WW2 WMD's. Much of the world could make them if they chose. Small thermonuclear devices and custom DESIGNED bioweapons are modern WMD's, with the latter as far as anybody knows potential only. Even Saddam was going to have WW2 level technology.