11-01-2004 02:48									#1
	AU mod: the guerilla unit Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

for a change a short, not too discussion-intensive thread: the guerilla unit.

- in the PTW-AU-mod, guerilla got it's attack increased to 8, exactly like the infantry. (the 8-attack infantry has already been adopted in the C3C-version of the mod)

- everything is the same for the guerilla unit, except that it now upgrades to TOW-infantry (A:12,D:14). but this come a lot later with rocketry and usually far more than 50 turns away (after replacable parts follow AT, electronics, radio and the whole upper branch).

so my proposals:
a) give the guerilla an attack of 8
OR
b) treat all terrain as road and keep attack value at 6


b is a more risky idea, but because i see the AI often running around with guerillas, at least it could use it as a great sabotaging unit (pillage). of course this should only be allowed if the attack stays at 6. with 8 the guerilla would be the same or faster than cavalry!

	11-01-2004 02:51									#2
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in addition:
in the PTW version mod, the guerilla got ZOC...

	11-01-2004 03:04									#3
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I like the ATAR idea, especially since they are guerillas. Besides, by the time they come around, everything should be roaded anyway and probably railed, no?

Does ATAR work in enemy territory?

	11-01-2004 03:36									#4
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Cool idea.

	11-01-2004 03:48									#5
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quote: Originally posted by ducki Does ATAR work in enemy territory?

I haven't tested it myself, but from the stories about how great Conquistador armies are in C3C, I guess it does work.

	11-01-2004 13:09									#6
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Movement of 2 and all terrain as grassland also works well for guerillas.

	11-01-2004 16:04									#7
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Proposal b may be a cool idea, but IMO it doesn't suit the philosophy of AU mod. Guerillas are just upgraded archer or longbowman, the resourceless offense (and defense) units of industrial era. It should be a slow-mover.

	11-01-2004 16:51									#8
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Agreed. A guerilla with high movement will encourage players to build some guerillas even when they have rubber, which is probably not what the designers intended.

I think the PTW AU mod solution was a good one. So increased attack plus ZOC in C3C seems fine.

	11-01-2004 16:57									#9
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quote: Originally posted by alexman I think the PTW AU mod solution was a good one. So increased attack plus ZOC in C3C seems fine.

As a consequence thereof you should give ZoC to the TOW Infantry.

	11-01-2004 20:57									#10
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quote: Agreed. A guerilla with high movement will encourage players to build some guerillas even when they have rubber, which is probably not what the designers intended.

Conversely, if our goal is to make the game more challenging, giving the AI guerillas with better movement tends to help. As the AI often tends to get stuck without rubber, giving them this speedy unit just means they can harrass the human player a little better, which in turn gives the player one more thing to worry about. I've played with this modification myself, before, and from my personal point of view, it does make the game more interesting. More so than simply raising the attack.

	11-01-2004 21:29									#11
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another idea, but maybe still too radical for AU, but definetly more realistic:
give it ATAR, but remove some defensive points.

the art of guerilla warfare is striking fast at unexpected places. after all, some call it terrorism. having guerilla as defense not realistic at all.
the disadvantage of this idea: it could weaken the AI if he has to build riflemen instead...

	12-01-2004 01:11									#12
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hmm. i like the idea of all terrain as roads for the guerilla; however, that would also need to be the case for tow infantry, which probably shouldn't be able to out-move mech inf on open ground.

also, guerillas have a use already: defensive bombard makes them a decent addition to defensive compliments when artillery aren't available.

	12-01-2004 17:45									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Movement of 2 and all terrain as grassland also works well for guerillas.

I like this idea. I've been using 2-move guerillas in my own mod ever since PTW came out. Definitely a better feel than stock, and the AI uses them quite effectively.

	16-01-2004 01:12									#14
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Under consideration:

A) No change
B) Increase attack to 8.
C) Increase attack and add ZOC. Add ZOC to TOW Infantry.
D) Increase movement to 2, all terrain as grass.
E) All terrain as roads.

Let me know if I should add any other proposals to the list. Voting (by putting above proposals in order of preference, e.g. ABCDE) starts in a week.

	16-01-2004 02:48									#15
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Guerillas already have a radically lower defensive value than their same-time-period infantry counterparts. It is only in comparison with now-obsolete riflemen that their defense looks respectable.

I see no logical rationalization for the higher movement rate for guerillas that some people are proposing. Guerillas are good at attacking by surprise and then disappearing, but that is a very different thing from being able to cover long distances quickly.

Thinking some more about the ZOC issue, the incompetence of Civ 3's pathfinding mechanism (unless it's been fixed in C3C) makes ZOC a much bigger nuisance than it ought to be. Given a choice of equal-movement-cost paths (especially on railroads), the pathfinding algorithm seems to pay no attention at all to whether or not it is moving through an enemy ZOC. That poses two problems. First, it makes ZOC a bigger threat to AIs than it ought to be. And second, it makes ZOC a bigger micromanagement hassle for human players than it ought to be. Under those circumstances, I don't think the legitimate benefits of giving guerillas and/or TOW infantry ZOC in situations where crossing their ZOC is truly necessary outweigh the liability when the pathfinding algorithm moves units through a ZOC through sheer stupidity.

Nathan

	16-01-2004 05:30									#16
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alexman,
i think your list more or less covers all proposals.
however, i would think giving ZOC to TOW Infantry should be voted on separately.


slightly off-topic: what does TOW actually stand for?

	16-01-2004 12:25									#17
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Tube launched, Optically tracked, Wire guided [missle system]

(depending on who you ask)

	21-01-2004 20:36									#18
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Here's my ranking (I guess the ranking method is standard practice now!?):

1. B, Increase attack to 8.
2. A, No change.
3. C, Increase attack and add ZOC. Add ZOC to TOW Infantry.
4. D, Increase movement to 2, all terrain as grass.
5. E, All terrain as roads.


Dominae

	23-01-2004 02:07									#19
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Time to vote (hey, it's Friday in most of Asia).

My order of preference:
C) Increase attack and add ZOC. Add ZOC to TOW Infantry.
B) Increase attack to 8.
A) No change
D) Increase movement to 2, all terrain as grass.
E) All terrain as roads.

I don't mind the extra micromanagement to avoid the AI ZOC. And it's very satisfying when you can set up your defenses so that the AI has no choice but to pass through your ZOC or attack at bad odds.

	23-01-2004 03:06									#20
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(best)

C) Increase attack and add ZOC. Add ZOC to TOW Infantry
B) Increase attack to 8
A) No change
D) Increase movement to 2, all terrain as grass
E) All terrain as roads

(worst)

	23-01-2004 03:52									#21
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My ranking (from best to worst)

C)
D)
A)
B)
E)

	23-01-2004 06:10									#22
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CBA

I do not support D or E in any way.

	23-01-2004 18:06									#23
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Pooh. I've been using 2 movement in my own mod and really like it (as does the AI), but looks like it won't fly here. Ah, well...

D) Increase movement to 2, all terrain as grass.
C) Increase attack and add ZOC. Add ZOC to TOW Infantry.
B) Increase attack to 8.
A) No change
E) All terrain as roads.

	24-01-2004 01:15									#24
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CBADE

	25-01-2004 11:14									#25
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CBADE