08-02-2004 21:41									#61
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new unit "lombard" (also new shield for it ). The power struggle between the lombards and the other latins for control of the "latin empire of constantinople" was a real issue in the first two decades post 1204, and i am trying to make it evident in the game via events. historically emperor henry conquered most of the other latin kingdoms in Greece, taking Corinth, Athens, Thebae and in the north Dyrrachion. However i am not sure if it will work if i have the empire of constantinople in war with the minor latin kingdoms. after henry's death the other kingdoms became largely independent again, and didnt do much to help the by now collapsing latin posessions in macedonia & thrace.

i decided that the scen will begin in 1205 and end in 1350 something i think (date of the death of andronikos III palaiologos). the reasons are many:
in 1205 Phillipoupolis is conquered by the latins. this leads to open war with the bulgarians, but soon afterwards the bulgarian emperor dies and civil war takes place. this is helpful because i didnt want to have bulgaria strong from the start.

Andronikos III palaiologos came to power by going to war against his uncle, Andronikos II. civil war destroyed the empire and for the first time it was obvious that the ottomans would become the dominent force in the european parts as well (byzantine campaigns now were very dependent on ottoman troops, due to other events of the period, like dushan's conquests in macedonia). also this makes the problem that there are no ottomans in the game as a nation look a bit less significant. moreover this scen is mostly about the empire of Thessalonike

in theory this scenario should reach its peak in turn 30 or so, when the crucial battle with the bulgarians takes place (events see to it that they wont be easy at all...)

ps: can one make barbarian units appear by events? what is the significance of the "trigger attacker/trigger defender" commands in the create unit menu?

Attachment: epiros.gif
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Last edited by varwnos on 08-02-2004 at 21:49

	08-02-2004 23:57									#62
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I guess that if you rename the Barbarians to for example Independents, you have to write Independents.
If you don't rename them I guess it's just Barbarians

(You rename them in Labels.txt)

	09-02-2004 04:12									#63
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hm, i am using the fw editor and i am not sure that it has an option for creating barbarian units via events. do you know what the trigger defender-trigger attacker options are?

	09-02-2004 11:19									#64
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The scen has reached the most boring stage of scen creating: time to place the bulk of the roads, irrigations, fortresses and barbarians... anyway, here is a nice pic of Constantinople there are naval borders (venetian fleets) and land borders in asia minor (frankish and angevin shields) basically the latins are meant to take Chalkedon and Nikomedeia (they did historically) before their possesions in asia minor just collapse (post henry's death). i am trying to make most nations fun to play.

i would really like to have some cool naval units of the period though, any ideas? (i am always left to do everything on my own) :P

Attachment: constantinople.gif
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	09-02-2004 17:55									#65
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Just a tip, it's better that you edit things manually as some of the editor may destroy files etc. I know when I changed some unit stats, it sc***ed up my rules file
Anyways, I'm not sure if there's something wrong with the events edtior.
I think you should write the barbarian event manually..

	11-02-2004 00:53									#66
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You are welcome to use the ships I used in Daroae. Apart from the big ship, the Galease I think all can be used starting 1205. Not entirely correct but maybe a bit more interesting.

BTW, I am still not sure of the use of the naval border unit in your Scn. The other AI might just keep attacking it if they are at war with the venetians or whoever owns these "units".

TRigger attacker, defender:
You can set specific actions for these

i.e. (from my Vikings scn)

@IF
UNITKILLED
unit=Rendier
attacker=Norwegians
defender=Barbarians
@THEN
TEXT
NEWS: Hunters track a herd of Rendier!
ENDTEXT
CHANGEMONEY
receiver=triggerattacker
amount=50
@ENDIF

or...

@IF
UNITKILLED
unit=Monk
attacker=ANYBODY
defender=ANYBODY
@THEN
TEXT
NEWS: Monks robbed by thiefs!
ENDTEXT
CHANGEMONEY
receiver=triggerattacker
amount=50
@ENDIF

ANYBODY aint working properly I think but it was ok for my scn,...

Hope this helps.

	11-02-2004 10:03									#67
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ty

can you write an example of an event where barbarian units are created? (since the fw editor doesnt have this option for barbarian units, i will have to write those events manually)

as for the naval borders you were right in assuming that they arent venetian-controlled, although i might make one of them venetian controlled. atm all of the units around Constantinople are controlled by the latin empire of Constantinople. The reason that the naval borders are there is because i want to avoid anyone else moving units in the Bosporus, unless they conquer Constantinople ofcourse. Well the naval borders wont be impossible to destroy (they arent air units, they are naval) but it will take 2 or 3 attacks in the same round i guess, if they are veteran. Those units will also be (in smaller numbers) in two cities in Crete, and other than that probably nowhere else. Unless i have one in Methone as well, which was an important conquest of the venetians in Morea.
i made a few more units: bulgarian horseman, wallachian, hungarian, and also edited the main serb strong unit a bit. however i am very slow with finishing things

the good news is that i decided that the latin empire of constantinoplke wont be allied with the minor latin kingdoms, since the war was real between them during the reign of Henry, besides after that the epirotans are supposed to pretty much be between the two latin powers anyway (although i dont know if a computer controlled epirotans -empire of thessalonike- will do that, but the empire of thessalonike is the nation you are supposed to play. However the bulgarians, and the two latin powers, will be fun to play as well. The hungarians and the wallachians are there to trigger invasions if attacked, so that serbia and bulgaria dont have safe borders (when ai controlled). probably killing those units will give you a cash bonus though, but there wont be any hungarian or wallachian city to conquer (i dont see the point in that).

i dont know if i will use your ships from daroe, although they are very cool, but i think that i shall use some of the fading lights ships due to the venetian unit there which i like i am using your siege engine and the trebuchet however

here is a pic of the serbs and the bulgarians. btw wasnt serbia a kingdom at the time? (probably, since dushan called himself king i think, and not emperor) bulgaria was an empire, i know

ps: Mathias, can i use all of your icons from DAROE? it goes without saying ofcourse that it will be mentioned in the text file

Attachment: serb_bulg.gif
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Last edited by varwnos on 11-02-2004 at 10:10

	11-02-2004 21:52									#68
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@IF
RANDOMTURN
denominator=10
@THEN
CREATEUNIT
unit=Avar Horsemen
owner=Barbarians
veteran=yes
homecity=none
locations
183,71
endlocations
@ENDIF

And event example above.

I did not create the Trebuchet or Siege Engine myself. Only took them from some other scn. You are free to use any grafics from my scn. Take a look in the readme, I think I noted who made what grafics.

btw wasnt serbia a kingdom at the time?
cant remember

	12-02-2004 14:28									#69
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ty Mathias btw my name is Kyriakos (it is from Kyrie, it means belonging to the lord, although i am not christian anymore)

i am still placing roads and irrigtions these days, and it is very boring... making nice little graphics is more fun! here is a pic of roughly what the empire of thessalonike consisted of, from dyrrachion to the black sea coast etc. theroretically the player should have reached this stage in 1230, cause after that the bulgarians become a considerable power

Attachment: empire.gif
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	14-02-2004 20:41									#70
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The map looks nice

	14-02-2004 20:47									#71
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the map isnt the only thing that looks nice (so do the units, and me!) heh

well the map was made by you, and certainly it is great. i just made it 150% bigger, and changed the Chalkidike peninsula, Morea, and bits of the islands here and there.


i made 5 new units:
-catalan company
-siege
-(new version) nicaean footsoldier
-(new version) nicaean archer
-new special byz (empire of thessalonike at least) unit: defence of Thessalonike

Attachment: byz_units.gif
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	14-02-2004 21:35									#72
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Oh, now I see the units. But I still don't see You.

	14-02-2004 22:00									#73
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double post

	14-02-2004 22:00									#74
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I've found some references to Fading Lights in the thread. I'm flattered. I also see You used, at least at some stage, my Balkan cities and my cannon. Both are old, but while the cities were based or something, the cannon is a pure fantasy, and I'm ashamed of it a bit. You can use it if You want, but You'd better find something else.
Oh, good luck. I'd rather see non-fictional scenario, but it's still byzantiner one after all...

	15-02-2004 20:27									#75
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Hey Heresson, i am not sure exactly where you were getting at, but:

a) your scenario "fading lights" ofcourse is very impressive, and very interesting for your serius attempt to depict the historical situation of the period it is about. however this made it impossible and frustrating, and at least i never could play it to the end, the genoan galley event was unbelievably annoying (for me at least). Moreover creating an impossible situation in anatolia meant that the player was just stuck trying to take the turkish cities, and that was about all of the gameplay value. Still the map you made is amazing, and th scenario has enough good points to be regarded as a civ2 classic, which i am sure it is!

b)as for my scen i am not sure what you would like to see, i am not even sure if you will dl it anyway but i decided not to make it fictional because i had already made historical units and nations etc. this is from 1205- Andronikos III (late 1300s i think, i'll have to check again though). My main model is DAROE, since it had a very high fun value, which ofcourse emant that playing as the Nicaeans you could just destroy the ottomans in a few turns, which made things non-historical, but fun. In my scen there are no ottomans as a nation, so i didnt have to deal with that issue, but still the Nicaeans arent really meant for play in my scen.
I decided not to have a map of the entire anatolia due to the lack of ottomans etc.

c) well as for my pic, i had once posted it (heh) but anyway this thread isnt about showing pics of oneself, so you will just have to take my word for it!

d) i am not using your cannon unit anymore, since this scen doesnt go as far as 1453

e) your balcan cities are nice, but the andalusian cities i found look better imo. i tried to make cities myself, but failed miserably, and appreciate everyone's better attempts to do so

f) the city placement was just coppied from your scen (fading lights), i only added some cities in Epiros, and in the islands. This was done since i gather that you went to a lot of work to find the main cities of the period etc, so i could benefit from that effort

Last edited by varwnos on 15-02-2004 at 20:34

	16-02-2004 00:37									#76
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Hi

I assure You the genoan galley thing was as annoying for me as well Just I'd rather a scn to be too hard than too easy. Perhaps I've overdone it. I'll make an update someday. When it comes to the Turks, it wasn't completely impossible. If You take Konya, there's a chance great Turkish progress will never start. If You research proper techs giving You industrial boost and fortify heavily in western Anatoly, it is possible to survive there as well.
And finally, You can try to defend in Europe - conquest of Balkans is possible.

quote: b)as for my scen i am not sure what you would like to see, i am not even sure if you will dl it anyway

I assure You I will! I'd like to see a good scenario. Keep workingover it until You'll be sure there is something in it may make You proud of it. I'll be pleased to take a look at it in the playtest time.

Oh, I don't mind your scn not being 100% historical. Every historical scenario is historical fiction after all.

quote: c) well as for my pic, i had once posted it (heh) but anyway this thread isnt about showing pics of oneself, so you will just have to take my word for it!

Hm. You could base your people.gif. on You and your family.

quote: d) i am not using your cannon unit anymore, since this scen doesnt go as far as 1453

wa-l-hamdu li-l-lahi.

quote: f) the city placement was just coppied from your scen (fading lights), i only added some cities in Epiros, and in the islands. This was done since i gather that you went to a lot of work to find the main cities of the period etc, so i could benefit from that effort

I'm sure I've made some mistakes, though.

	17-02-2004 17:00									#77
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Hm, still not sure how much time till beta release! although by now most of the city-terrain touches are finished. i think that the catalan company wont be barbarian, but "minor latin kingdoms" controlled. the minor latin kingdoms atm are: the dutchy of athens, the kingdom of korinth, some islands here and there, the city of Bar in the upper Hadriatic, some serbian cities.

here is Morea

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	18-02-2004 02:39									#78
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the latins now have new feet! well i think that they sucked before, now they are just the same as the rest of my units, more or less

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	18-02-2004 04:54									#79
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Er, my apologies if you said something about this and I missed it, but you ARE including Greek Fire, right? That's the coolest thing about the Byzantine Navy.

	18-02-2004 15:40									#80
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hm, i am not, but i am not sure that greek fire was used after 1204 (the fourth crusade). And this starts at 1205. Also there were some byz soldiers that held a kind of miniature cannon/ flame-thrower. But i dont have them either :| their model was very hard to work with due to the colours. They appear in DAROE i think though. The byzantine empire was quite a weird place, if you think that up to 1071 (battle of Matzikert) it generally was another planet by its own, no comparisson with the (very lower) tech & cultural level of the rest of europe etc.

	19-02-2004 06:20									#81
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Well, speaking for myself, I won't complain if you stretch history.

	19-02-2004 18:36									#82
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Well the thing is that i suck at creating tech trees, so i tend to just have special units for each nation (which in the end becomes boring though, since some units mostly have a different shield and thats all) and give them all from the start, then give some new units through events, or give a new tech through an event etc. so i am not sure if my scen will be interesting as far as the use of units not available from the start is conserned..
the shileds add a bit to the atmosphere, but they make it impossible to have new units replacing the old, because there just isnt the space for some many units.

Last edited by varwnos on 19-02-2004 at 18:52

	19-02-2004 23:34									#83
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Well, I'm poor at those myself. It'd be really useful if there were a more user-friendly tech tree editor based on point-and-click. Hint, hint, programming geniuses!

	20-02-2004 13:55									#84
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I'd second that!

A tech tree maker that even just creates a @CIVILIZE 0-99 list would be a brilliant tool!

Anyone want to start a thead?

	20-02-2004 18:24									#85
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If you have many units whose only difference is their shield then drop the shield. You can have one unit for all civs then. Giving you more unit slots to use.

Make a linear tech tree only. One that goes

Tech A->Tech B->Tech C and so on...

It's better than nothing. Or, copy your scenario and use the copy only for playing around with the tech tree and things that are difficult. I did that for Daroae, saved me a lot of problems and setbacks. Once the tech tree works all you need to do is copy the text file into the actual scenario.

About Greek Fire. The use in naval warfare had declined in the 13th century though it was still used on occasion to great desaster for the enemy. However, the appearence of Gun Powder and more advanced catapults put greek fire more and more out of range. I saw no use in creating a special greek fire unit in my scenario. If it was used it was used by the different troops and not by special units that could be represented. The only outstanding one was the blow-pipe unit depicted in my scenario. Though, they were not really using greek fire but a substance derived from it. Cloth or wood was painted with it or entirely attached to it, it was not really liquid anymore more like a strong sirup. On impact it would expand and set anyone hit on fire.

Considering the size of the map a greek fire unit makes no real sense to me.

Edit: I played my own Scn today and rediscovered I used Greek Fire not as a unit but as a technology to give certain units.

Last edited by Hendrik the Great on 21-02-2004 at 00:37

	20-02-2004 18:50									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Well, I'm poor at those myself. It'd be really useful if there were a more user-friendly tech tree editor based on point-and-click. Hint, hint, programming geniuses!

That would be great! Especially for players like me who doesn't dare to create scenarios with thech-trees.

	21-02-2004 18:15									#87
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well i decided to drop the shields so as to make room for techs. some new byz units created. however the serbs & bulgarians probably wont get any new unit :| there is just some "torcher" unit for them. now there are slots for another 7 units or something, but it is boring! i am making the tech tree, it will be linear. btw how can i set bonuses for different buildings?

or i could enable the serbs & bulgarians to gain one of byz archer units (atm they dont have an archer unit). torcher" is a unit that ignores city walls. another question is whether the empire of thessalonike and the empire of nicaea should start with the same soldiers. there are three main groups of byz soldiers that i made, and 2 special units (archer & imperial guard) and also there is always the possibility of giving them mercenery slav units (in daroe style)

the main byz units follow in the next post..

sadly the fact that my units dont look at all like other people's prevents me from using so many nice byz units found here and there!

Last edited by varwnos on 21-02-2004 at 18:39

	21-02-2004 18:41									#88
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the psilos pikeman is my current favourite

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	21-02-2004 21:23									#89
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Looks very nice. But what do you mean by "set bonuses for different buildings"? You can alter the effectiveness of happiness improvements by giving techs to different civs, but AFAIK improvements otherwise have very set functions.

	21-02-2004 22:57									#90
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Did you play Daroae as the Nicaeans once? I am playing my own scn atm afte rnot bothering about it for about 2 years and its very hard to kill those damn Ottomans I must say, though maybe thats because I am also fighting the Latins and the Venetians the same time on 3 different fronts. Just took Constantinople in 1333, very late but I am alive and advancing slowly! By 1453 I'll likely have taken most of greece and the island. Already own Crete, Lemnos, Chios, Lesbos, destroyed that city south of Histiaia, now attacking Histiaia and securing the Theo Landwall, Dorylaeum and Sinope are holding the ottoman advance (there must be hills of bones infront of their city walls )

Hmm. You got me inspired. Maybe, after I come home again from my vacations in early April I might make Version 2 of Daroae. I found some small mistakes when playing. Nothing that would hinder gameplay though.

Maybe you mean upkeep cost and build cost by abilities of the buildings? They can be changed in the rules.txt. There you can also change the prereqs for them.