11-01-2004 13:03									#1
	a very byzantine change of plans Got spare money?

I decided to take my time in maiking a different byz scenario, this one is a hypothetical scenario, what would have happened if Consantine Palaiologos diecided to continue the war from Morea, abandoning Constantinople to the turks? (well it is hypothetical, we know that it didnt happen).

nations will be:
-morean greeks
-epirotan greeks (rebels, no city from the start)
-ottoman empire
-genoa
-decentralised turks (not sure yet, it is either them or another latin kingdom though)
-the dutchy of Athens
-Ressurected minor latin kingdoms in Morea (fantasy)

here is a still from the new, bigger map. ps: dont expect this to be finished anytime soon. i just wanted to give you an idea of what i will be working on, from time to time ty for your support (and admiration sometimes, heh, well thats good too) about my units etc

Last edited by varwnos on 28-01-2004 at 04:08

	11-01-2004 16:53									#2
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Nice one, mate!
Well, keep at it, and update the thread with new stuff!

I have mucho respect for all creators, and I admire finished scens most of all!

	12-01-2004 15:45									#3
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Another change of plans. The scenario will be starting in 1401 and it will be historical. Playable nations are:
1) the byzantine empire (central and parts of southern morea, Thessalonike, Anchialos -in coastal east-northern thrace- and Constantinople)
2) Venice (most of the islands)
3) the dutchy of Athens (a part of central greece)
4) the three latin kingdoms (it will be named after the dutchy of Achaia -most of western morea) but they also control the southern ionian islands and some major eastern islands, and also some cities in Epiros (Ioannena and two other ones)
5) Albania (three cities)
6) the knights order of st. John Hospitaler (Rhodes and some other islands, like Kos)
7) not sure if this will be the ottomans, i may make use the raging hordes of barbarians option for them, since the map doesnt include all of the ottoman conquest of the period. So this spot is still open, i might use it to create two latin kingdoms.

here is a pic from byzantine Morea

i need latin & venetian units...
i will work on this scenario rather slowly, so no early release

Last edited by varwnos on 28-01-2004 at 04:19

	12-01-2004 16:11									#4
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Do you accept a suggestion (or two)?

There are two byzantine scens I'd like to play more than anything else

1) A what-if about Maniaces. He appears to have been a brave and intelligent general, that was killed by an arrow. I bet he could have established a powerful disnaty just at the end of the Macedonian Dynasty.

2) A heoric, very hard-to-win (near impossible) scen about the last days of Constatinople - play it and taste how heoric and sad was the fall of the roman empire!

	12-01-2004 18:43									#5
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I am not familiar with Maniakes, the only book i have read about the empire was centered in the reign of Romanos Diogenes (battle of Matzikert) and started in the end of the Macedonian Dynasty, so it might have mentioned him, but i dont recall. I certainly remember the horrible puppet king Mourtzouflos, who was such a coward that he let the latins steal his royal clothes and crown (he basically escaped wearing peasant clothes, this happened during the 4rth crusade).

Well this scenario is almost the second one you mentioned you would like to play

The dutchy of Achaia will be the seventh civ, and the other latin kingdoms will be one civ. So no ottoman empire in the game, they will be simulated by barbarian cities and massive level of barbarian activity (well apart from Albania they were in war with everyone else at some time, and Albania was conquered in the end as well, so it makes sense, besides it would be dead boring to play as the ottomans in 1401)

apart from the byzantine empire, which is the one to play, i think that the dutchy of Achaia, the knight order of st. John and the dutchy of Athens will be a lot of fun. The other minor latin kingdoms are too far away from each other to be very strong, Albania only has 3 cities and is isolated (ottoman empire and northern latin kingdom are its bordering states) and Venice simply is too overwelmingly the strongest naval force to be really fun. Curt, Yaroslav, can you find any nice latin-venetian units? I guess that i could use the ones from Daroe but i would like to have more options since they dont look at all like my own units

	12-01-2004 19:21									#6
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I dunno... I mean, there hasn't been designed too much venetian units as far as I know.

This is the unit.gif of the Hanti's four sea republics. The graphics are generic, but I wonder if some of them could fit your needs.

Attachment: units.gif
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	12-01-2004 19:24									#7
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About Mainakes, I don't know too much about him, but he appears to have won many victories in Italy and be an able man

	12-01-2004 20:09									#8
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Fairline made some great roman units (and their enemies). This includes Byzantine units. But I don't think that they'll match your own style that you already use.

	13-01-2004 07:12									#9
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Well i dont plan to make non byzantine units since i a)lack the models and b) my editing program's licence has expired

so the non byzantine units will look less cool (heh) But at least they should be of the same size, otherwise it wont work

	13-01-2004 11:18									#10
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some more of the byz units i made, i think that the knights of st john order will have some byz units as well since in the end they drew in greeks in big numbers in the order possibly some byz units (named epirotan cavalry, infantry, archers etc) will be used for Albania as well. and also perhaps one barbarian unit.

Last edited by varwnos on 28-01-2004 at 04:10

	13-01-2004 16:03									#11
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Ok, i decided to try to make my own latin and other western european units, although i dont have any models etc. so here are two units for the kngihts of Rhodes. They are the weakest player in the game (along with albania ofcourse) so i tried to make them look as scary as possible heh. the monstrous helmets may be altered later on though, what do you think? i dsont think that they look that bad, although they arent as cool as some of the byz units

Attachment: byz_units_varwnos.gif
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	13-01-2004 17:23									#12
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Good!

If you allow a few remarks: the bowman might use some more work:
1) the bow looks strange to me
2) the way the (scary ) helmet sits on his head might be adjusted a bit...

In my opinion, it's necessary that you draw the units yourself, because so you'll have an homogenous (and good looking ) batch of units! So you are doing the right thing!

So keep on drawing!

	13-01-2004 22:02									#13
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Well you are right, the helmets just had to go, and i edited the units a bit. I still dont like the knights of st john horseman though. the venetian unit looks a bit cooler i think

Attachment: byz_units_varwnos.gif
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	15-01-2004 07:01									#14
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changes:

-new map (its an edited, and increased in size version of the DAROE map, however i dont like the fact that in scale it is smaller than the one i was using, although in overall size it is bigger)

-dropped nation "knihts of st john"
-new nation "Serbia"

the other nations are the same.
(pic removed)

-Venice (cyan)
-Dutchy of Patrai (Orange)
-Byzantine Empire (Blue)
-(latin) Kingdom of Korinthos (red)
-Dutchy of Athens (deep blue)

i still need latin units, my own arent that good

Last edited by varwnos on 17-01-2004 at 20:00

	15-01-2004 14:24									#15
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the rather ugly castles were replaced with a "border" shield. the castles will serve for increased diffuculty of siege in some cities.

atm i am finished with morea, epiros & albanian coast and most of venice, the latin powers and some of serbia. what remains to be done with the cities is to place the massive amount of barbarian (ottoman) controlled cities. i dont see anyone offering any latin units, so this is going to be slow

ps: the yellow & white shield is i trust the coat of arms of the Angevin kingdom (tuscany and papal states i think) which is used for the kingdom of Korinthos border since the kingdom of Korinthos was just a vassal of those italian powers anyway, and so was the duchy of Athens, which shall have a different borber probably though. The byzantine border shield is the known one, and the coat of arms with the four B's is used for the byzantine units.
I do not have the coat of arms of serbia, and i am not sure that the albanian coat of arms is known, i really doubt that it is the black two-headed eagle on the red background, but i am not sure. Also i am not sure that the "nation" was called albania at the time, but that doesnt matter much.
I dont have a venetian coat or arms, but i will probably make my own from europa universalis (unless someone provides something)

Attachment: morea.gif
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Last edited by varwnos on 15-01-2004 at 14:31

	15-01-2004 14:34									#16
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the nice 1401 map i used for the scenario

Attachment: map.gif
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	15-01-2004 17:29									#17
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i reworked some of the byz units (like the archer seen on the pic) and created my first final version of a non byz unit, the venentian pikeman seen in the left edge of the pic

where is everyone? :P i mean i keep posting rather impressive pics, but get no feedback still ships are needed (i only have two, and only one final version) and also some shields would help a bit (albania, serbia, latin shield) and also icons. any cool city graphics would be welcome as well although i dont mind using the ones i have also some turkish unit? oh well, i can always make my own i guess (turkish unit i mean, not the rest!)

Attachment: morea.gif
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	16-01-2004 06:18									#18
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Ooh!!!

	16-01-2004 12:39									#19
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(edited)

Last edited by varwnos on 28-01-2004 at 04:17

	16-01-2004 18:41									#20
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"The city graphics drastically improve you should."
May the Emperor be with you.

	16-01-2004 20:17									#21
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pah, ok, whoever managed to see the pic was lucky back to civ2 i guess

Last edited by varwnos on 17-01-2004 at 10:03

	17-01-2004 19:54									#22
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All of the units are completed.
-serbs & albanians will have at least 3 "special" units each, from the byz mercenary group
-latins and venice have 3 special latin units, but the same for all three.

here is the pic of the latins

Last edited by varwnos on 28-01-2004 at 04:13

	17-01-2004 19:58									#23
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i also made the two special turkish units. they will also have cannons etc.

here is the pic of them, near Thessalonike


ps: whatever happened to those who said that they would help? i ended up making all of the shields. i would rather not end up making all of the flags as well though :P oh, anyway

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	22-01-2004 23:40									#24
	Where is everyone? Increase the size of your Attachments

I am facing diffuculty in finding any map that has the cities of the balcans (apart from Greece) and also of asia minor, circa 1400...

also i am not sure that i would like to use the city graphic i am using atm.

Is there any possibility that some of you will help? :P (well, for some reason it is beginning to seem very unlikely!)

anyway here is a pic of the new unit, mr Constantine Dragases Palaiologos (not my unit, just edited a bit)

Attachment: morea.gif
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	22-01-2004 23:43									#25
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all of the units made by me for this scenario. the shield units are meant to be borders

Attachment: varwnos_units.gif
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	23-01-2004 19:47									#26
	Inflate your Upload Space

blah (edited)

Last edited by varwnos on 28-01-2004 at 04:15

	27-01-2004 02:57									#27
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Maybe you would like to take a look at the scenario about Byzantine that I made quite a while ago. It with the Fall of Constantinople to the Latins and the final end in 1453. Has a load of self-drawn units, including Epirote, Serbs, Bulgarian, Venitian and others...ships, too.

Its called Death and Resurrection of an Empire (short DAROE) released 2 years ago I think. Should be found here on Apolyton, the Spanish Civ2 Site and some others.

P.S. Wow, my 1st post at Apolyton for month or even years...

	27-01-2004 03:21									#28
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Your scenario is certainly great, infact the map i am using is an increased in size version of the one you used for DAROE. I am trying to make the scen look as cool as yours, but generally i am not very much into civ2 anymore, and things move slowly. I guess i am not putting my heart into civ2scen-making anyway, and that is making it harder, but civ2 isnt life...

Anyway my plan is to make something like a cross between daroe and fading lights, and possibly it will just end up horribly wrong!

	28-01-2004 04:28									#29
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Anyway, little help as i had, i managed to go on with the scenario

changes: 3 seperate latin kingdoms:
-dutchy of athens (in reality it is the dutchy of athens + the minor kingdom of Korinthos)
-principality of Achaia (+ the islands of Mytilene and Rhodes)
-principality of Butrinto (epiros)

the knights order of st john is currently run by Achaia, i dont see much reason to make it barbaric

other nations:
the ottoman empire is now a nation, it takes the place of albania, which is barbaric (special units etc)

the rest remain the same:
serbia
byzantine empire
venice

here is a pic of the hadriatic + the map, almost complete. now i have to do the events etc etc etc

Attachment: hadriatic.gif
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Last edited by varwnos on 28-01-2004 at 13:53

	28-01-2004 04:33									#30
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also a pic of the dutchy of athens, it has both angevin (papal states, yellow and white shields) and dutchy of athens (blue with white cross) units.

barbaric nations include bulgaria (1444 the battle of Varna), and minor turk states.

Attachment: duchy_of_athens.gif
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