20-01-2004 05:56									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Enigma_Nova YES! More than 4 SE choices along every row dammit!

Do you have something specific in mind? The existing SE choices seem to cover all the bases I can imagine. In fact, I will make a challenge. I will make *any* social order you can come up with out of the standard SE choices and factions. Excluded, of course, are "shades of grey" *between* SE choices--for example, a "regulated market." SMAC is about extremes. (And the most extreme extreme is embodied by a faction taking its preferred choice.)

For example, the government choices can mean a lot of different things. Take Fundamentalism, for example. Of course, when the believers have it, it is the usual church-hierarchy based god believing heretic persecuting heathen converting type of government... but what about the other factions with Fundamentalism? After all, only the University is barred from this choice... It's not difficult to imagine, remembering that all factions are based upon a particular ideology, and any ideology can be carried to universalist extremes.

A Morganite Fundamentalism very agressively promotes the gospel of lassiz faire, believing very strongly that the best is served by Adam Smith's "invisible hand," regardless of any evidence to the contrary. Capitalist economic treatises are quoted with the same conviction a Believer quotes scripture, economic theorists of the past (Adam Smith, once again) are venerated, Nwabudike himself regarded like a saint. A quite irrational dedication to the Free Market squeezes out even the possibility of any other thought, and, indeed, the slightest consideration of "helping the poor" or "public resources" is persecuted heavily. Tech advances which seem to favor social values are quealched....

Lal practices what I might call "Democratism." In the name of "Democracy," countries are invaded, authoritarian business models are quealched, the successful are cut down by their own neighbors. Of course, for the time being, Lal controls the country through a "provisional" government, necessary to ensure the world is safe for Democracy, he says...

The Fundy Gians protect the environment, no matter what the human cost. This planet shall be venerated. The Planetmind will be nurtured, and ultimately, obeyed. Anything that looks suspiciously like an exploitation of resources for profit (no matter how necessary or benign) is ended. And, of course, they will stop at nothing until the *entire* planet is safe from the other factions...

Yang finds that ruling through a cult of personality is more effective in certain instances than ruling through the direct application of force, and, of course, they wish to bring this benevolant rule to all...

The Spartans elevate the phrase "to keep and bear arms" to the level of scripture, venerate those that promoted this concept in the past, persecute anybody that suggests, for any reason, that certain weapons might be regulated. They have a mission of ensuring every person on the planet has this God-given right.

	20-01-2004 07:04									#32
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Politics: Anarchy

Polymorphic networks (D2) Provide a way for supplying propagada to the people and adapting to keep them swayed, while still believing that they have freedom of will.

-2 POLICE +2 GROWTH +2 SUPPORT

Economics: (haven't given it a proper name)

Adaptive Economics (B3) advocated a system whereby the system shall be adapted to suit the people.
A state based more on unions and the common man rather than the business elite. At the expense of energy, the people are more content, well-off, and so too do they prosper.

-2 ECON +2 GROWTH +2 POLICE

Values: Freedom

Neural Grafting (C4) Posed humanity a frightful question: What if one day their minds are controlled by the machines they love?
Contemplation of this sparked investications into Values: Freedom, which stresses the importance of no man being tied down to any particular value.

+1 ECON +1 RESEARCH +2 MORALE (Those who want Knowledge, Wealth an Power can follow so)
-2 EFFICIENCY (Decentralised, people working for their own good rather than for the good of the system)

Future Society: Eugenic

The Secrets of Creation (D10) Paved the way for the understanding of why man is, and what an ideal man should be.
But, if we know what should be present, then how do we attain it?
Eugenics offer the most simple and brutal opposition: Kill anyone who does not fit well with the notion of The Ideal.
+2 INDUSTRY (hardworking) +2 RESEARCH (Brilliant) +2 MORALE (Well-trained) -11 GROWTH (Since we're killing them off)

	20-01-2004 12:53									#33
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My own view on rushing secret projects is that they should be the accomplishment of an entire faction, not just the one base. Using crawlers and cash makes perfect sense in this case. If you want to make it more difficult, make it much more expensive, so players really do have to make it a faction-wide effort.

	21-01-2004 00:34									#34
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quote: I *love* the culture aspect, and think it even more appropriate in SMAC, if tweaked a bit. You could have them assigned per faction, and rather than having the likelyhood of defection be based upon "cultural buildup" as in Civ3, you could have it based upon whether or not the occupying faction has certain SE options. Another aspect would be the occupying faction's "preferred" options.

I find that the whole concept of culture to be highly unrealistic and stupid for a strategic wargame and would be even more unbelievable in a futuristic setting. Actual historical examples of advanced civilization 'subverting' their invaders take place over centuries, not one instantaneous cultural bit-flip over a 20 year (to say nothing of a 1-year) period.

Furthermore, these examples NEVER saw a shift in the actual families who ruled the cultures they conquered. The Norman aristocracy installed by William the Conqueror ruled in England for centuries. The Manchu Dynasty lasted for a comparable time. And if they absorbed some of the culture of their conquests, this is more a case of learning technologies than losing control of their dynasty.

	21-01-2004 01:00									#35
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Actually, I came up with a way to make "culture" work in SMAC:

Don't tie it to culture.

Instead, have borders tied to technologies and/or facilities. As certain technologies are discovered, they allow for improvements in communication, detection, and command that translates into larger borders. This could be further tied to facilities, to reflect the need to implement the technology, and to create the problem of balancing desired borders with with the costs needed to create them.

	21-01-2004 01:03									#36
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So more like the border mechanics for Rise of Nations. Interesting. I like the idea of techs/facilities increasing border size, but the whole 'base defection' idea is ludicrous to me.

	21-01-2004 03:02									#37
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As opposed to, say, "thought control"?

	21-01-2004 09:04									#38
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as for new SE choices..

Government:
Feudal - Various internal parties (or families) within the faction vie for dominance. Certainly not democratic, much more freedoms than Police State, and no hold onto theocratic doctrine. Armed forces can respond faster and trade is increased within the faction and the rest of Planet, however, family or faction loyalties often stifle breeding and cripple efficiency.
+1 Support, +1 Econ, + 1 Police, -1 Growth, -1 Effic

Economics:
Xenophobia - A complete lack of trade with the outside world, due to fear of outsiders. This means that the goverment completely focuses all it's attention on internal development. Government sanctions against big business stifle the economy, while small business flourishes. New industries erupt to serve the needs of the public because researchers are diverted to find new ways to do old things (without outside help).
-2 Econ, -1 Research, +1 Industry, +3 Effic

Values:
Pleasure - The need to be satisfied and to please others overrides every other desire for power, wealth or knowledge. One only wants to know how to provide pleasure to one's self and others. This value system brings about a resugence of the ancient art of sex, rampant gambling, resort hotels, and many parks. Vast well-fare systems, rehabs and pleasure machines, however, are a drain on resources. War, of course, is not pleasurable or desireable, but control over the pleasure centers of the human brain can cause even the most terrified or painfully wounded private to pick up his weapon and continue to fight.
+1 Morale, +1 Econ, +2 Growth, -2 Support, -1 Police

Future Society:
Psionic - A centuries old eugenics program has now yielded a race of pure psionics. Powerful and enlightened telepaths seek to control their own power and the power of lesser telepaths. Because of their complete devotion to the mind, their bodies have weakened, making them nearly sterile and lacking in physical strength. Enlightened as they are, they are in tune with Planet and the rest of humanity.
+2 Police, +2 Planet, +2 Research, +1 Probe, -1 Industry, -2 Morale, -3 Growth


What do you all think of these?

Last edited by SynthetGod8 on 21-01-2004 at 09:13

	21-01-2004 23:03									#39
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quote: As opposed to, say, "thought control"?

Yes. If you read the description in the Datalinks for thought-control, you'll see that it's really just a reprise of the classic dysutopian societies envisioned by Huxley and Orwell. Thought Control is just a fairly dopey name for a classic science-fiction convention.

What I'm objecting to about 'culture' is the idea that suddenly my society's obsession with foreign spices and using a different fork to eat salad will make them suddenly (if not instantly) forswear their allegiance to me.

It's a ludicrous idea with no comparable historical precendent, and Civilization is supposed to be a game which is modeled after history.

	22-01-2004 02:52									#40
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk My own view on rushing secret projects is that they should be the accomplishment of an entire faction, not just the one base. Using crawlers and cash makes perfect sense in this case. If you want to make it more difficult, make it much more expensive, so players really do have to make it a faction-wide effort.

That's what I did. I made them cost at least twice the original, and several are a lot more than that.
I followed a simple formula: 10L+N=C, wherein C = Cost of Project, L = Tech Level of prerequisite, N = Number of techs required if you had to actually research every tech. If the result of this formula was less than 2x the original cost, I simply doubled the original. Then I made the cost for The Ascent to Transcendence = 999. Have fun rushing it

	22-01-2004 03:06									#41
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quote: Originally posted by CEO Aaron Yes. If you read the description in the Datalinks for thought-control, you'll see that it's really just a reprise of the classic dysutopian societies envisioned by Huxley and Orwell. Thought Control is just a fairly dopey name for a classic science-fiction convention. What I'm objecting to about 'culture' is the idea that suddenly my society's obsession with foreign spices and using a different fork to eat salad will make them suddenly (if not instantly) forswear their allegiance to me. It's a ludicrous idea with no comparable historical precendent, and Civilization is supposed to be a game which is modeled after history.

Actually, I was refering to the Probe Team action.

	22-01-2004 03:08									#42
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quote: Originally posted by gwillybj That's what I did. I made them cost at least twice the original, and several are a lot more than that. I followed a simple formula: 10L+N=C, wherein C = Cost of Project, L = Tech Level of prerequisite, N = Number of techs required if you had to actually research every tech. If the result of this formula was less than 2x the original cost, I simply doubled the original. Then I made the cost for The Ascent to Transcendence = 999. Have fun rushing it

I love you, man.

	22-01-2004 03:19									#43
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quote: Originally posted by gwillybj That's what I did. I made them cost at least twice the original, and several are a lot more than that. I followed a simple formula: 10L+N=C, wherein C = Cost of Project, L = Tech Level of prerequisite, N = Number of techs required if you had to actually research every tech. If the result of this formula was less than 2x the original cost, I simply doubled the original. Then I made the cost for The Ascent to Transcendence = 999. Have fun rushing it

	22-01-2004 06:25									#44
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About some of the alternative SE choices -

As mentioned, most bases are covered eg psionic = thought control. I do like the idea of 'Anarchy' as a choice, although not perhaps in the way envisioned in an earlier post.
How about real anarchy? Every 10 turns or so with the anarchy choice you are given random positives and negatives to your SE, after all your societies hardly anarchic if it remains constant!
There's a short story by Louis Borges (can't remember the title now) where there is a society organised on an entirely random lottery-style principal - I would guess it would mirror this type of SE choice, and would be a little different from all the other options.

On a linked theme of books with some relevance to SMAC afficionados - has anyone read 'Salt' by Adam Roberts? I'd never heard of him before, and picked it up for £1 in some bargain bin, but it looks at a similar theme of colonisation of an alien world by opposing ideological factions. Worth a look.

	22-01-2004 08:55									#45
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I love Thought Control. The idea of effusing your population with subtle neurochemcial triggers to both pacify and subdue it as well as make your citizens more resistant to outside influences appeals to me.

I like the idea of "Feudal" though......

	22-01-2004 12:38									#46
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"True" anarchy has nothing to do with chaos, as all it is, is a lack of any knid of government beyond family or clan bonds. Some might even say that's too much control. I would see it as the politics version of free trade, with the same economy bonus and police hit, but with the other negative in efficiency rather than planet (everybody goes their own way, so group efforts suffer).