12-01-2004 04:47									#1
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Hi

I´ve seen many people say that armies get offensive and defensive bonuses in C3C. For exampel Berserker armies are 9/3/2. But when I created armies I´ve not seen any bonuses in the stats. I have a cavalry army and its 6/3/3. Are the bonuses not visible when you right click on the army?

I use the 1.12 beta patch

	12-01-2004 04:55									#2
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Not visible... I suggested that as a patch thing somwhere.

And don't forget, the "Army level" stats are even more useless (when using mixed unit Armies).

	12-01-2004 05:01									#3
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Thanks for the quick reply
This has been bugging me for some time now. What exactly are the bonuses? 1+/1+? The manual is so crappy and I looked in the readme but it didnt say anything (maybe i missed it).

quote: And don't forget, the "Army level" stats are even more useless (when using mixed unit Armies).

Didnt get that part

	12-01-2004 05:07									#4
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First, the bonus:

Without the Mil Academy, 1/6 of total attack or defense strength. With it, 1/4. I believe this is rounded down, so, say, a 3xLegion Army would be 4.4.2.

Army stats: The Army itself, not just the units in it, also gets a visual display of its stats. 3x of anything is simple, the same as the underlying unit (but again, without the bonus represented). So, 3xCav are 6.3.3. Mixed unit Armies get the average of the stats, again rounded. So 2xSword+1Rifle gets 3.3.2.

	12-01-2004 05:09									#5
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Ok I get it.

Thanks for the help!

	12-01-2004 05:16									#6
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Long story short: ignore the unit values you see displayed for the army unit -- they are meaningless.

Long story long: armies operate in a non-intuitive way. Although acting as one, the army uses the combat values of the unit displayed graphically. And the units "share" available hitpoints. For example, a unit consisting of 1 tank, 1 infantry, and 1 archer (all veterans) would enjoy 12 hitpoints. If attacking the army would attack with a value of 16 (the tank's value). If defending, it would defend with a value of 10 (the infantry's value). In each case, the best attacker or defender takes the lead, depending on circumstance, and acts for 1/3 of the available hitpoints (since there are 3 constituent units). If 1/3 of the HPs are lost in any one battle, the next strongest unit values are used. In separate battles, the strongest unit always takes the lead.

For example: our crazy 12 HP tank-infantry-archer army, on the attack, attacks with the tank's value of 16. The army loses 3 HPs but defeats its enemy. It now has 9 HPs. It attacks again, this time losing 3 HPs before the battle is over -- during the first 3 HPs it was using th tank's value of 16 on attack (and showing the tank graphic), but thereafter it will use thenext best attacker and its value, the infantry and 6 attack value respectively. Eventually the army wins, after losing a total of 5 HPs. The turn ends with our army at 4 HPs. During the AI's turn, our army is attacked. It defends with a defense value of 10 (and the infantry's graphic) for either one or two HPs (depending on rounding rules which I don't remember), and then defends at 8 from the tank's value, before finally defending at 1 (te archer). Peopole say that an army "shares HPs" because of the fact that the available HPs are shuffled equally (subject to rounding) among the constituent units of an army from battle to battle. Our crazy army could burn through more than 4 HPs worth of tank-attacking-value from battle to battle even though the tank unit comprises only 4 HPs of the army's total of 12 HPs.

All the while, our crazy army will display stats of 8.6.2 -- which stats are, again, meangiless.

A couple of final points: (1) armies in C3C enjoy a combat bonus -- see this thread; and (2) amphibious units enjoy a 25% combat bonus when attacking amphibiously (not clear whether this applies to amphibious armies).

Finally, virtually everything in my post comes originally from the work of Theseus in pioneering the use of mixed-unit armies, originally championed in On the Use and Utiltiy of Armies, which is itself found in the great "Must Read" thread.

Catt

EDIT: Damn! another cross-post with that trouble-maker Theseus

	12-01-2004 05:48									#7
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How many times have you and I done that, Catt? Me: Short answer. You: Long but much more complete answer?

One thing I'd point out:

quote: Originally posted by Catt People say that an army "shares HPs" because of the fact that the available HPs are shuffled equally (subject to rounding) among the constituent units of an army from battle to battle. Our crazy army could burn through more than 4 HPs worth of tank-attacking-value from battle to battle even though the tank unit comprises only 4 HPs of the army's total of 12 HPs.

One of the things that always jumps out at me is that 4th HP of Tank (or then best unit). It sorta has a 2.5 value to me: a) an extra round of better strength, a2) this especially applies to more experienced fastmovers, and b) it can be lost without losing the unit. So, in a way, it can be considered a 33+% improvement to the attacking unit, before you even get into all of the other benefits of Armies (especially now with C3C).

Thanks for the kudos, Catt!

	12-01-2004 07:33									#8
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quote: (2) amphibious units enjoy a 25% combat bonus when attacking amphibiously (not clear whether this applies to amphibious armies).

I had the impression that the amphibious attack bonus was not implemented, that marines just got an enhanced attack strength instead.

Has it been confirmed anywhere that combat strengths are rounded to integer values? I thought they were so many decimal places.

	12-01-2004 08:02									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe quote: (2) amphibious units enjoy a 25% combat bonus when attacking amphibiously (not clear whether this applies to amphibious armies). I had the impression that the amphibious attack bonus was not implemented, that marines just got an enhanced attack strength instead.

From limited testing and vague Firaxian comment, it appears that there is an amphib attack bonus of 25%. This can be verified by setting up a test scenario with a bunch of "10" attack marines attacking a "10" defense infantry that enjoys no terrain or city defensive bonuses.

quote: Has it been confirmed anywhere that combat strengths are rounded to integer values? I thought they were so many decimal places.

I have no idea -- and it's quite amazing that, with all the rounding involved in various game formulae, the rounding aspects of combat values have never been (as far as I know) examined in depth. In the experiments I've done or reviewed, the rounding or failure to round has never implicated outcome results, but still no one has ever answered the question.

Catt