12-01-2004 09:19									#1
	Idea about RailRoads Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

One of the things that bug me is the no move cost of railroads. You can basically have all your units in the center of the empire (and i use this strategy), and just shift them as needed when war breaks out. No need to defend any places. I currently have my RR build time at 48 tuns (8 turns for industrial after replaceable parts). This makes RR so much more valuable as an infastructure & transportation network since it takes a very long time to rebuild (especially in those slow turn phases in the modern age).

Well here's a (another) concept :

Lets say RR only give the standard 1/3 movement bonus & the extra food production. What if there were a city improvement, say Train Station, where you could 'rebase' units in that city to another city with a trainstation. Also, workers should be able to build trainstations (like airfields) where you could rebase units to remote areas.

Couple of rules that would guide this:

- No limit to how much you can rebase

- Units obviously lose their turn/movement rate when rebasing, making instant retaliation strikes impossible in an unorganized defense line. Which is good, btw.

- Only ground units can be rebased this way.

This, IMHO, would generally be good, which also gives attackers more of a chance, by not having to be the only one to suffer from terrain. When i get attacked, the enemy usually stops within one square after entering my country (duh, movement costs). SO i get out my stack of 50 artys and pound them to nothing. Then i get bombers to bomb the shiat out of them. Then any other units from my 'central location' come by and pick em off one by one, also doing some leader harvesting
AI does the same to me when i attack, Once i make a seaborn landing, every unit in the empire pounces on me in the next turn. Though i can't even make a second attack the next turn at a different location (figuring all their units are at the other side of the empire) noo..oo.o...sir.. next turn my other landing force on the other side of the empire faces the same wrath of all the enemy units. Don't get me wrong, i am capable of effectively taking over a stronger enemy empire in the modern age, i just think its stupid that all units can be everywhere at once!


(Btw, is there some way to mod the game so that RR work like roads?)

	12-01-2004 09:26									#2
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If a turn lasts 2 years, is it really that difficult to comprehend a unit crossing your nation in 2 years, on a train?

However, in Civ4, hopefully Firaxis will include a "railroad movement" option in the Editor, if just to satisfy nitpickers.

	12-01-2004 09:29									#3
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uhmm.. so lets say i don't have RR yet, Would you say it would take 20-40 years (Basically the adult life span of a human) to cross the empire? Or lets go further back. Would you say it would take one of my guys 100 years to travel from one city to the next? Of course, it wouldn't be 'them' arriving then, but their childrens children.

	12-01-2004 09:31									#4
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Damn.

	12-01-2004 10:01									#5
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quote: Originally posted by MattPilot uhmm.. so lets say i don't have RR yet, Would you say it would take 20-40 years (Basically the adult life span of a human) to cross the empire?

If the average lifespan is that short for your civ, than obviously you haven't reached a tech level that'd include RR use.

ha!

I hope that in Civ4 they do something to make things a bit more 'sim-realistic'.

	12-01-2004 11:13									#6
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It's an interesting idea, but imagine what it would be like to actually play like this. It's an absolute arse having to move all those workers around in the late Industrial Age as it is - imagine if you had to click all over the place to "rebase" them!

	12-01-2004 11:57									#7
	Re: Idea about RailRoads Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by MattPilot (Btw, is there some way to mod the game so that RR work like roads?)

Just remove them from the game perhaps?

	12-01-2004 13:18									#8
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The instantaneous movement on rails in response to invasion represents the mobilization in response to an attack.

I would prefer that rail movement not be allowed adjacent to an enemy unit; or, as an alternative, a unit can move "normally" OR it can move by rail.

	12-01-2004 13:56									#9
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You need to sever railroad lines in critical places 'before' you invade in the main. This is real-life. If you can make every roaded tile into a rail-line, then up the time for to make same, until this becomes unfeasible. Otherwise I like your ideas, especially the rail spurs via train stations. As far as gangs of workers go we are looking forward to the addition of 'worker gangs'.

	12-01-2004 21:20									#10
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell If a turn lasts 2 years, is it really that difficult to comprehend a unit crossing your nation in 2 years, on a train?

and the same distance by sea with nuclear submarines taking 40 years?

	12-01-2004 22:11									#11
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well, if i understand your idea, I don't think it really solves the problem, all it does is make you have to build yet another city imp before rr's perform the same. It just slows you down, but once every city has a train station, you have instant movement again.

except for the used up turn bit.

I think simply having a game setup option for changing the movement rate for rr's is good enough.

that way we all get what we want.

or if they must make a change, then just make rr's 1/5 or something other than infinite.

I like rr's the way they are.

maybe i misunderstood your idea.

	13-01-2004 00:10									#12
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quote: Originally posted by MattPilot uhmm.. so lets say i don't have RR yet, Would you say it would take 20-40 years (Basically the adult life span of a human) to cross the empire? Or lets go further back. Would you say it would take one of my guys 100 years to travel from one city to the next? Of course, it wouldn't be 'them' arriving then, but their childrens children.

Sure, why not? Methusala lived 900+ years..

Genesis 5:27 - And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.

	13-01-2004 00:26									#13
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QUOTE//Genesis 5:27 - And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.//UNQUOTE

close and yet far away substitute 'moons' for 'years' and all is more accurate and closer to the truth.

	13-01-2004 03:10									#14
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quote: and the same distance by sea with nuclear submarines taking 40 years?

Did I say that I liked how sea units moved?

	13-01-2004 04:16									#15
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I have removed railroads from my personal mod. I just can't stand how they eliminate so much strategy by making unit placement basically mean nothing. I know it is a huge change from stock Civ3 but it is just something I hate about the standard game. Let alone the AI does not use railroads nearly as strategically as a human player does and just make the game that much easier to win once you get steampower.

	13-01-2004 06:03									#16
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quote: Originally posted by vee4473 or if they must make a change, then just make rr's 1/5 or something other than infinite.

So, for some reason tanks would move faster along railroads then infantry would? That doesn’t make any sense.

	13-01-2004 06:32									#17
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Eladamry,

we're talking about balancing the rr's. Not making the game realistic.

Then how about making all units on rr tiles have a locked movement of x tiles?

regardless of inherent unit movement rates.

oh, but then the threads of "this unit or that unit would NEVER move THAT far on a railroad" pop up..

	13-01-2004 06:55									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Antrine substitute 'moons' for 'years' and all is more accurate and closer to the truth.

Clever! Never heard that one before. Not sure what textual support there might be for it, of course...

	13-01-2004 08:27									#19
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This is either a) irrelevent or b) in the wrong forum. It won't happen in C3, not as an XP and definately not in a patch. Take it to the civ/future forum (the de facto C4 list forum).

	13-01-2004 08:39									#20
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QUOTE//It won't happen in C3, not as an XP and definately not in a patch. Take it to the civ/future forum (the de facto C4 list forum)UNQUOTE by skywalker//

Hopefully something is feasible to modify in C3 and we have the next few months to hammer that out. And maybe there is something that can be tweaked and added to the game editor, maybe even addressing rail-lines. Where is the definitive list of what can and cannot be done?

And however noteworthy 'civ/future forum (the de facto C4 list forum)' is, it is a future fantasy that may encompass a few years and which company for sure has the ball?

With all clarity and respect, at this moment, I vote to keep pressing for tweaks in C3.

Sincerely,

	13-01-2004 08:40									#21
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yes, moderator skywalker.


There are many threads in the general forums that discuss what others would like to see in certain aspects of the game.

Don't know why this one is getting up your arse.

	13-01-2004 19:24									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Plotinus Clever! Never heard that one before. Not sure what textual support there might be for it, of course...

Textual support for the idea that Methuselah died before age 3? No, I don't think you will find that anywhere.

	13-01-2004 20:13									#23
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Train Station. A very interesting idea. Here's an idea for them I'll throw on the table. RR's give all non-military units infinite movement. Train station improvement needed for military movement. Train station acts as a terminus for miltary movement...in other words, military units can move infinitely between train stations but would be restricted to normal (i.e. non RR) movement should they venture beyond them.

	13-01-2004 22:04									#24
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I like Train Station. And having to stop at each one (for one turn) and not move beyond them at all, for any unit. And they could (hopefully) be placed within cities and outside cities anywhere there are tracks already laid. With a limit of distance between them (Train Station) adherred to.

On the Methuselah reference to the counting of time cycle, I will this last note defer to another venue elsewhere where ever that may be. Here excepting to say historically the keeping of time, years and such was often mixed up with the moon or lunar months being aproximately 13 per year. Yearly calendars as we now use them did not exit with any accuracy worthy of much merit until Julian. Divide 969 by 13 and you get (rounded up) 75 years, the common lifespan of man. END of comment with due respect to 'various' religious convictions and of yet more varied religious beliefs.

Sincerely,

	14-01-2004 00:38									#25
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Is there a way to mod the airport to act like a train station, and take away workers abilities to lay track?

	14-01-2004 01:05									#26
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Off hand I think so. Tying the two criteria 'together' may be tricky. I like railroads, they alone are a fasinating world. Industrial power is railroad. Therefore I would like all it's various facets expanded to better reflect railroads importance. Another unit (specialized) could be hyjacked to build railroads only. They would require a general level of industrialization such as so many banks for without large amounts of capitol, no railroads.

Good ideas, I shall see what I can cook up on my next mod version now eighteen I believe. Thanks

	14-01-2004 03:44									#27
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No, it's not possible. The airport allows relocating to ANY city with an airport. You can remove the RR ability though - just tie it to a new resource and set that resource's distribution to zero.

	14-01-2004 04:19									#28
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... or remove the Build Railroad Flag from the worker.

	14-01-2004 04:34									#29
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Or make a "Filler" Tech with Era_None and make that required to Railroad.

	14-01-2004 05:00									#30
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I think the idea was to lessen the railroads utility with military units instead of removing them all together.