13-01-2004 06:08									#1
	Psych Allocation Poll Remove this text

As Drogue has asked me to Poll any future Sociel Enginering changes and I have time this time around. Here is yonder Poll.

Choices are

1 Stay at 50 Econ, 0 Pych, 50 Labs
2 Move to 30 econ, 20 Pych, 50 Labs
3 Write in

Let me point out the advantages of 20% Pych, first off it will passicy Drones in Pi Square, Apolyton Prime and Logic Loop alowing these bases to use ALL workers and work an additonal forest each. But the biggest benifit is that we can delay the production of Hologram Theaters in all these bases. Instead we can begin a Crawler in each next turn and spit them out at a nice rate. These can bring in a substantial quantity of minerals and put is within striking distance of our next Secret Project which we may under time preasure to build.

Also we can likly bring captured bases to productivity sooner as we will have an additonal drone calmed by Pych plus 2 from a Rec Comons and one Police we can control a population up to 4 without doctors. The addtional works can often compensate for much of the energy consumption.

We do have a reduction in Econ output as we go to 30 rather then 50 and we stop using Tecnicians in Logic Loop (unless more B-Drones strike). Our Research though will remain unaffected at 50% so we get SFF in the same number of turns.

What ever choice wins the Poll I will plan accourdingly and produce Internal orders consistent with so lets try to get this figured out asap.

OPPPS forgot to actualy put the Poll in and I dont seem to be able to add it with editing, just write your responses OK

Thread title edited by Drogue for spelling: Pych->Psych and Alocation->Allocation, and added an "official" symbol, since there is no poll and I wanted to make this stand out for easy referance. Hope Impaler doesn't mind

Last edited by Drogue on 13-01-2004 at 15:43

	13-01-2004 06:13									#2
	Put an end to popups!

Voting #2 ofcorse

Go Pych Go!!

	13-01-2004 06:23									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

#2

	13-01-2004 06:28									#4
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I checked the difference in-game. Right now going to 20% psych would result in -19 credits, -1.2 labs, +4 nutrients and +3 minerals. The drawbacks far outweigh the benefits, so my vote goes to #1.

	13-01-2004 15:38									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Maniac I checked the difference in-game. Right now going to 20% psych would result in -19 credits, -1.2 labs, +4 nutrients and +3 minerals. The drawbacks far outweigh the benefits, so my vote goes to #1.

Is this the total change we can expect to see? How may citizens can start work due to this? The real benefits will obviously be with further growth of our bases, so if these figures are all there is perhaps we should wait until our bases are near growth again - the benefit for resources will be greater then, especially if there are more improvements around. Remember too that more minerals can add up extra due to the speedier construction of Crawlers that then contribute more food/nutrients/energy sooner than they otherwise would. We have to keep in mind that a small resource increase can lead to larger benefits sooner, as long as we are building Crawlers and have decent terrain around for them. I withhold my vote for the moment without more info to go on.

	13-01-2004 15:39									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Maniac: Are you sure? We will have a net gain of energy, so I presumed with labs staying at 50% there would be a raise overall?

IMHO, 19 mins is worth more than 4 nuts and 3 mins, but I will check when I get home from work and will post my vote.

	13-01-2004 18:31									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Is this the total change we can expect to see? How may citizens can start work due to this?

It is indeed the total change with two doctors already put to the field. Those workers are what get us those 4 nuts and 3 mins. IIRC the only two workers we could put in the field extra are Logic Loop and Apolyton Prime. In two turns or so a third one in Pi Square appears, but even then 0% Psych would still be more profitable AFAIK right now.

quote: The real benefits will obviously be with further growth of our bases, so if these figures are all there is perhaps we should wait until our bases are near growth again - the benefit for resources will be greater then, especially if there are more improvements around. Remember too that more minerals can add up extra due to the speedier construction of Crawlers that then contribute more food/nutrients/energy sooner than they otherwise would.

True of course. But 19 credits extra per year allow us even speedier construction and growth by hurrying etc.

quote: Maniac: Are you sure? We will have a net gain of energy, so I presumed with labs staying at 50% there would be a raise overall?

I'm not sure of anything. But the philosophical babble aside it are at least the results I got yesterday in SMAX. The slight decrease in labs is probably due to IIRC 4 or 8 % inefficiency hit we get by going 30% economy and 50% labs.

	13-01-2004 19:25									#8
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Point taken. When we move to FM it may become worth it. I will vote tonight. I am unsure which is best ATM.

	14-01-2004 22:00									#9
	Put an end to popups!

The primary benifit is in delaying Holo Theathers which can instead be Crawlers which can become the (insert desired Secret Project)!!

Also consider the fact that Pi Square could soon be hit be B-Drones in additon to its Growth, this could be disasterous if we dont have sufficient Drone Control. We would need to create 2 specialist (Tecnicians or Librarians ofcorse) but we would have to move workers off forests onto Farms just to prevent starvation leaving us with an output of 0/2/8 with Pych we could instead use only 1 specialist and have an output of 0/5/10 and Econ output would be only 4 Points lower then the 2 Tec/50% Econ plan

Apolyton Prime will also Riot next turn and require a Doctor, with Pych we can keep this fellow working his Monolith (2/2/2) rather then being a useless Doctor.

In Logic Loop we can alocate the 2 Tecnicians as workers if we wish, asuming the new Crawler is out harvesting 5 nuts from the nut Bonus we can have 5/13/20 after consumption, Maintance and waste. Vs 2/11/17 with Tecnicians. A net of 3/2/3. The Tecnicians generate 8 more Energy Credits though.


Now lets add that up we have 7 more minerals and 5 more Nuts along with a total of 18 less Credits generated each year and 1.2 MORE labs under 20% Pych if we use only Tecnicians and assume B-Drones strike Pi Square (we know they will hit someware next turn and keep hitting as we keep taking bases). So as you can see the Energy production will be alsomst completly offset by loss of minerals and net build speed will remain roughly equal. Yet we will be giving up substantial Nuts as well for no good purpose. Also factor in that our Captured PEACE bases can benifit from a pacified Drone as soon as they have an output of atleast 8 energy, this is the point when the Pych will hit 2. Its quite possible to reach that point in many of these bases in the near future. For example MegaByte could passify one of its drones if had 3 workers, along with the Rec Commons and Police that would mean no Doctors their and a more productive base overall.

	14-01-2004 22:26									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] The primary benifit is in delaying Holo Theathers which can instead be Crawlers which can become the (insert desired Secret Project)!!

Yes, but my argument is that right now this can be done cheaper with doctors.

quote: Also consider the fact that Pi Square could soon be hit be B-Drones in additon to its Growth, this could be disasterous if we dont have sufficient Drone Control. We would need to create 2 specialist (Tecnicians or Librarians ofcorse) but we would have to move workers off forests onto Farms just to prevent starvation leaving us with an output of 0/2/8 with Pych we could instead use only 1 specialist and have an output of 0/5/10 and Econ output would be only 4 Points lower then the 2 Tec/50% Econ plan

When that situation with b-drones occurs, we can re-examine the costs and benefits of 20% psych compared to a few doctors. However right now my simulation indicates doctors as the more lucrative option.

quote: Apolyton Prime will also Riot next turn and require a Doctor, with Pych we can keep this fellow working his Monolith (2/2/2) rather then being a useless Doctor.

Currently Logic Loop and Apolyton Prime are the only bases that would benefit from 20% psych. In all other bases psych has no useful effect right now.

quote: In Logic Loop we can alocate the 2 Tecnicians as workers if we wish, asuming the new Crawler is out harvesting 5 nuts from the nut Bonus we can have 5/13/20 after consumption, Maintance and waste. Vs 2/11/17 with Tecnicians. A net of 3/2/3. The Tecnicians generate 8 more Energy Credits though. Now lets add that up we have 7 more minerals and 5 more Nuts along with a total of 18 less Credits generated each year and 1.2 MORE labs under 20% Pych if we use only Tecnicians and assume B-Drones strike Pi Square (we know they will hit someware next turn and keep hitting as we keep taking bases).

How did you get those results? I got others. Could you please make a list of the doctors you could put to the field as a consequence of 20% psych? I'll do the same when I can access SMAX, and then we can see where the difference in our simulation lies. Also, currently there is no b-drone in Pi Square. If there comes one, we can reexamine the need for 20% psych. But right now it's not need as far as I can see.

quote: Also factor in that our Captured PEACE bases can benifit from a pacified Drone as soon as they have an output of atleast 8 energy, this is the point when the Pych will hit 2.

Do many PEACE bases have that? I'll recheck tonight, but when I last checked there was no useful difference in PEACE bases that would allow us to put one more worker to the fields/oceans.

quote: Its quite possible to reach that point in many of these bases in the near future.

In the near future that could indeed be quite possible. But right now it isn't.

	14-01-2004 23:03									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

One Doctor in AP can go back into the field imediatly

2 Tecnicians in Logic Loop can go back to the field imediatly

In 3 turns (or possibly sooner if B-Drones strike) a Specialist can return to work in Pi Square.

In Logic Loop I have asumed that we will have a Crawler working the Nut Bonus in both cases and that workers are distributed first on forest and on the 2/1/1 tile that is currently being farmed and on the 1/1/2 tile below it.

If the 20% Pych is not usefull as of yet it definatly will be in 2-3 turns as you seem to conseed to. So the question is realy WHEN to initiate the change, our B-Drone situation will likly determine this. Depending on the rate and number of B-Drones we are hit with in the near future we might delay for a few more turns to generate additional Credits untill the drones become intolerable and require apeasment. When we switch to FM we can then Re-Re-evaluate the situation.

	14-01-2004 23:54									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I'll go for that. Look in a turn or two and see again

	15-01-2004 00:29									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Also it seems we may need thouse Credits soon for geting the PEG so lets consider this desided in favor of remaining at 50/0/50 with strong recomendation to re-evaluate in the future.

	15-01-2004 09:01									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Yes, I am for staying at 50/0/50 until we see a situation like the one you describe, Impaler. I only have one concern/question about staying as we are right now - when b-drones appear, will we be able to react by changing the Psych rate before there are any negative effects? If so, then I think we should stay as we are until there are more drones to pacify.

I am perfectly happy that, when Impaler's posted situation arised, the 20% lux saving our nuts is a good idea.

'Saving our nuts' - interesting phrase, isn't it?