20-01-2004 04:14									#31
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay By the way, for this round, should B be interpreted as, "Keep the Chasqui as it is but also let the Incas build regular scouts"?

Yes. It's a minimum change that makes sure that the Incas are at least not worse off than if they didn't have a UU at all.

	21-01-2004 20:48									#32
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quote: A) No change. B) Allow Incas to build regular Scouts. C) Reduce cost to 15 shields and remove movement bonus on hills/mountains. D) Reduce cost to 15 shields. E) Increase movement by 1.

Whatever happened to my original proposal?! alexman gets to prune the options he dislikes?


Dominae

	21-01-2004 20:55									#33
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I happen to think your proposal was pretty good, otherwise I would not have made a case for it in the initial post.

It didn't get support by anyone else (mainly because of the lack of a GA trigger and because the AI would not build their UU), so I didn't include it. I'm just trying to formulate proposals by getting a sense for the public opinion, since nobody else from the panel does it. Maybe you can defend your proposals instead of blaming me?

Last edited by alexman on 21-01-2004 at 21:17

	21-01-2004 21:21									#34
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It's so much more fun to blame you, though!

Sorry. The reason I did not defend my proposal much in this thread is that I've defended at nauseum in other places (including the thread you linked to in your original post).

So if anyone is in doubt, please revisit this thread for arguments why I think the 0/0/1 ATAR is better than any of the options we have here (no offense).


Dominae

	21-01-2004 21:28									#35
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OK, I added proposal F.

quote: Originally posted by alexman Under consideration: A) No change. B) Allow Incas to build regular Scouts. C) Reduce cost to 15 shields and remove movement bonus on hills/mountains. D) Reduce cost to 15 shields. E) Increase movement by 1. F) 0.0.1 ATAR. Scout upgrades to Chasqui. If proposals C, D, or E win. We may have another vote later to decide whether the Incas should also build regular Scouts.

	21-01-2004 21:52									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Sorry. The reason I did not defend my proposal much in this thread is that I've defended at nauseum in other places (including the thread you linked to in your original post).

I'd hardly call the discussion in that thread "ad nauseum" or even anything close to it. I regard 0/0/1 ATAR as a vastly bigger change from the stock rules than is needed to make the unit worthwhile; it preserves the unit's cost but makes it an entirely different unit otherwise. (That's especially true going through dense forests or jungles, where ATAR triples its movement rate.) Changing the cost but keeping the unit's nature the same seems a lot more conservative to me.

	22-01-2004 02:17									#37
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I'd like to preserve the original intent of Breakaway/Firaxis in the design of this unit. While making it 0.0.1 ATAR might make it a better unit overall, that wasn't they type of unit that they were shooting for. If I had a say, I'd like to see D passed, and maybe B as well. Maybe make it 0.1.2 just so they could start with the unit, but this isn't even an option under consideration. I think Dominae actually tried this, so I'll go back and look over that thread to see if it was thrown out for some reason. Hmm...

-donZappo

	22-01-2004 03:03									#38
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Why remove the attack value? As I showed in my thread on the Jaguar Warrior, a cost-15 2-move unit with an attack value of 1 is not a cost-effective combatant. And forcing Chasquis to trigger GAs only defensively would tend to make triggering a GA with them a good bit more difficult and expensive.

	22-01-2004 03:05									#39
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I think donZappo's point is that the civ that starts with a 2-move unit capable of attack can conceivably reach a neighboring capital before it has a chance to build its first defender.

	22-01-2004 03:40									#40
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A&B could work together, but it doesnt sound like the best option.

C isnt good. You're effectively giving them JWs. Aztecs have 2 trait PLUS incan scout? It wont be balanced.

D sounds good to me. As long as JWs shoulnt be 15shield and 10 instead...

E would sound good too, only if they didnt have stats. 1/1/3 mountain/hill for 20 shield is a bargain IMO.

Or just scout +1 move UU would be fine. either of the 3.

	22-01-2004 03:46									#41
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quote: Originally posted by alexman OK, I added proposal F. F. 0.0.1 ATAR. Scout upgrades to Chasqui.

It needs to cost 20 Shields, too. Edit: But it already costs 20, so silly me.


Dominae

	22-01-2004 08:05									#42
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quote: Originally posted by alexman I think donZappo's point is that the civ that starts with a 2-move unit capable of attack can conceivably reach a neighboring capital before it has a chance to build its first defender.

Thanks for elaborating on that Alexman since that is what I meant to say.

As a side note, I've never been a big supporter of the idea that every UU has to be able to trigger a GA since I think it makes some civs a little bit less interesting, but I'm willing to accept that the designers want it that way. Therefore, I want to see the final version of the Chasqui Scout at least have one point of attack or defense.

-donZappo

	23-01-2004 02:34									#43
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Time to vote.

My order of preference:
D) Reduce cost to 15 shields.
B) Allow Incas to build regular Scouts.
F) 0.0.1 ATAR. Scout upgrades to Chasqui.
A) No change.
C) Reduce cost to 15 shields and remove movement bonus on hills/mountains.
E) Increase movement by 1.

I don't like the increased movement after all, because it will allow the Incas to have a combat unit with 3 moves at a time where many cities have not expanded their borders, so they will not be able to see the unit and get a warning before an attack.

	23-01-2004 03:19									#44
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(best)

D) Reduce cost to 15 shields
B) Allow Incas to build regular Scouts
A) No change
C) Reduce cost to 15 shields and remove movement bonus on hills/mountains
E) Increase movement by 1
F) 0.0.1 ATAR. Scout upgrades to Chasqui

(worst)

Regarding F): IMO, UU's should be able to trigger a GA.

	23-01-2004 05:00									#45
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Here's what I think:

1. F, 0.0.1 ATAR. Scout upgrades to Chasqui
2. E, Increase movement by 1.
3. A, No change.

.
.
.
.

4. B, Allow Incas to build regular Scouts.
5. D, Reduce cost to 15 shields.
6. C, Reduce cost to 15 shields and remove movement bonus on hills/mountains.


Dominae


P.S: lockstep, the "UUs must trigger GAs" rule is a straightjacket.

	23-01-2004 08:04									#46
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DCAB... I don't like E or F at all.

	23-01-2004 17:59									#47
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BDAC... and I don't like E or F either.

	24-01-2004 00:58									#48
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DEABFC

	24-01-2004 04:11									#49
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DABC with no E or F.

	24-01-2004 04:13									#50
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX DABC with no E or F.

You to vote for E and F, Zarg, because we're using a ranking system for this particular vote.


Dominae

	24-01-2004 08:11									#51
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Actually, since D already won, he doesn't.

	24-01-2004 09:37									#52
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quote: You to vote for E and F, Zarg, because we're using a ranking system for this particular vote.

Just take "no" to mean the lowest possible ranks

	24-01-2004 09:47									#53
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I think it's an important distinction in the event we have this sort of vote again - there can only be one option given the lowest possible rank. The other has to be next-to-lowest, and with this sort of ranking vote, order is important.
Not in this particular vote, but as a matter of mechanics for future consideration.

	24-01-2004 10:10									#54
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I have to go watch Monk, which inspires me to be as spiky and neurotic as possible.

I couldn't vote E or F, I just couldn't, and I won;t be able to in the future. They are dirty. I don;t care if it messes up the mechanics, the mechanics are greasy. It's all out of order anyway, due to MP fortification.

Theodora committed the crime, with the Musket, in the Forbidden Palace.

I know this because there I found saltpeter mixed with a trace of Greek Fire (yes, I know what it originally was), and she won't sleep with me, meaning she is unusually chaste and thus un-corrupt.

Off to Monk and his crazy brother.

	24-01-2004 10:21									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I have to go watch Monk, which inspires me to be as spiky and neurotic as possible. I couldn't vote E or F, I just couldn't, and I won;t be able to in the future. They are dirty. I don;t care if it messes up the mechanics, the mechanics are greasy. It's all out of order anyway, due to MP fortification. Theodora committed the crime, with the Musket, in the Forbidden Palace. I know this because there I found saltpeter mixed with a trace of Greek Fire (yes, I know what it originally was), and she won't sleep with me, meaning she is unusually chaste and thus un-corrupt. Off to Monk and his crazy brother.

I think Theseus has gone to his happy place! Is this what too much Civ does to you? If so, I think I may stop now before I get too far...

	24-01-2004 12:21									#56
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Great episode. Monk and his brother reconciled. Cherry pie and Nationalism.