14-01-2004 01:30									#1
	AU mod: The Chasqui Scout Got spare money?

The problem

The Chasqui Scout is essentially a Chariot that doesn't require resources, is not wheeled, and ignores the cost of Hills and Mountains. Like the Chariot, the Chasqui Scout is no good for combat, but unlike the Chariot, the Chasqui Scout doesn't upgrade to a Horseman.

So the Chasqui Scout is worse than a Chariot for combat because of its upgrade path, and worse than a Scout for exploring because of its double cost.

Possible Solution

Dominae has suggested a possible solution for improving the Chasqui Scout:

1. Reduce attack (and defense?) to zero.
2. Reduce movement to 1, and treat all terrain as roads.
3. Scout upgrades to Chasqui Scout.

The idea is to transform the Incan UU into purely a scouting unit, rather than having it be a 'combat scout', which is not as good as the non-UU that already exist for exploration and combat.

The reason to make Scouts upgrade to Chasqui Scouts is so that the Incans start with their UU right from the start, providing them with great exploration capabilities to compensate for the fact that they need to invest 20 shields to build another one.

So do you agree that yet another 1-1-2 unit is boring? Do you think that the Chasqui Scout needs a change? Do you have any other ideas to improve this unit? Please share your views for the AU mod!

	14-01-2004 02:38									#2
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Thatīs a really good idea, they should be able to start with their UU, and that way itīs not overpowered

the only problem is that now they canīt trigger a golden age right?

	14-01-2004 02:53									#3
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I'm not sure why they should be able to start with their UU - do any other Civs have this honor?
I also am dubious that starting with a non-GA-able UU instead of having to build a GA-able UU is much of a fix for a cruddy UU.
I'd rather see the UU buffed up than stripped down. Or let it upgrade to Chariot(for free?) or Archer or something. Maybe give it enslave(which is funny for Inca, in a way).

	14-01-2004 03:02									#4
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quote: Originally posted by ducki I'm not sure why they should be able to start with their UU - do any other Civs have this honor?

The point of starting with this unit is to compensate for the fact that 20 shields is a steep price to pay for an exploring unit in the beginning of the game.

Also, the Incas don't need a super-UU, because their traits are superb. Just like the Americans, not being able to get a GA is a good balance for their traits.

The proposed change makes the Incan UU useful without being overpowered.

Edit: of course, if you definitely want a unit that can give a GA, the above proposal includes the option of leaving the CS with its defense strength of 1.

	14-01-2004 04:00									#5
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Yeah it would have to have at least 1 defense so they can get a GA from it at least. Can any wonder combo set off a GA for Agricultural/Expansionist traits?

I'd rather them start with a scout then the actual UU, but not sure how that would work, as the AI doesn't build explorer type units at all does it? And in regards to that, how will you flag this unit? Will marking it both defensive and explorer have the AI using it as city defense or will the AI actually build it and use it to explore? Will it build too many of them if it is marked defensive? Cause that would be bad as well, its not a good unit for defense and at most the AI should only have a few of them, if that many.

I'd bet thats why it has an attack rating in the first place, so that the AI can utilize it properly.

Maybe lower its shield cost a little and make it upgrade to swordman?

	14-01-2004 05:25									#6
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Could try giving them radar.

I also made a very strange mod where I gave them the recon air mission with an operational range of 5 but I think that made them too powerful.

	14-01-2004 05:32									#7
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quote: Originally posted by jim_steer I also made a very strange mod where I gave them the recon air mission with an operational range of 5 but I think that made them too powerful.

Now that's a great idea! I wonder if the AI uses that ability.

	14-01-2004 05:34									#8
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For single player purposes, I think a much better solution is to (1) change the Aztec Jaguar Warrior's cost back to 10, (2) change the Chasqui Scout's cost to 15, and (3) make regular scouts available to the Incas so the player has a choice of how many of each type of scout unit he prefers. The rationale is as follows:

(1) Even with a cost of 10, most people did not view the Jaguar Warrior as a particularly desirable UU in SP. With a cost of 15, the UU is practically a joke for anything but scouting and hut-popping purposes.

(2) At cost 15, the Chasqui Scout would be a useful UU. Purely for scouting purposes, the higher cost would be offset by the fact that it won't be killed by the first barbarian it has the misfortune of landing next to. It is also faster than a regular scout on the high ground, which happens to be the terrain that provides the best visibility. And it has the option to come back home when it's done exploring and participate in the civ's defense. The Chasqui Scout could even be used for Juguar Warrior style rushes if a player really wants to use it that way, although I imagine such tactics would be rather rare.

(3) However, even at cost 15, players might still view conventional scouts as more cost-effective for hut-popping in the very early game. Letting Inca players choose which type of scout they prefer would add an interesting strategic choice for Inca players and avoid the possibility of complaints that the Chasqui Scout is a handicap rather than a benefit.

Nathan

	14-01-2004 05:54									#9
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Giving the Chasqui Scout ATAR plus a defense value would make it way too powerful for scouting purposes. Not only would it have one and a half times the movement of a regular scout in the worst case and three times the movement through mountains, hills, forest, and jungle, but it also wouldn't have to worry much about being killed by the first barbarian warrior it happens to land next to.

The only thing that makes ATAR alone not seem clearly unbalancing to me is the fact that the Incas would have to give up the ability to trigger a GA with their UU to get it. With ATAR, Chasqui Scouts would have three times the movement of regular scouts through forest, jungle, hills, or mountains. And even on relatively good terrain, the Chasqui would probably be about twice as fast since it would't have to zig-zag to avoid forests or sacrifice movement to go up on a hill or mountain it starts its turn next to for a look around.

	14-01-2004 06:05									#10
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Having played Dom's Chasqui Scout test for a brief time (through about the middle of the ancient age, before I tired of the pre-patch corruption) I can say that the ATAR change would be powerful enough without adding a defense value. Those suckers uncover the continent very fast, and losing them to barbs is the price to pay for that speed. The non-ability to trigger a golden age with the UU is not that much of an issue as it's difficult to trigger a GA with them anyway and advisable not to do so since it would likely have to be an ultra-early GA.

	14-01-2004 06:37									#11
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Actually, triggering a GA with Chasqui Scouts would be a lot easier than it might seem at first glance. Even into the early industrial era, AIs tend to have some archers or longbowmen around. Chasqui Scouts could pick those units off on flat terrain to spark a GA, and could do so in a fairly cost-effective manner. (Badly injured MedInfs would also be perfectly viable targets.) Note that Chasqui Scouts can keep up with knights and at least more or less keep up with the overall speed of a cavalry offensive (albeit moving in on roads after the cavalry take a city), so keeping up with an attack well enough to participate is not a problem the way it is for ancient slow-moving UUs.

Nathan

	14-01-2004 06:43									#12
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I'm not sure where I read it, but somewhere someone made a good case about making the Jaguar Warrior 13 shields cause it can't be produced too fast nor does it take too long. 15 shields seems right for the Chasqui Scout, and making just two small shield cost changes is quite conservative and doesn't stray too much from stock C3C.

Making Scout available to Inca seems like a good idea as well since they are expansionist and this unit is really more then a scout.

	14-01-2004 07:44									#13
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I was thinking of opening a thread on the Jauguar Warrior first as we would then not have to worry about making the Chasqui too similar. Something like a fifth reduction in cost for both might be sensible. (The other and perhaps more important issue for the JW is whether to remove the ability of Aztecs to build warriors.)

I think 0/0/1 ATR is too good. There are maps on which the Incas' traits are going to be the first choice and changing them from much worse to much better at scouting than other expansionist civs would be unbalancing on them.

Movement 3 is another possibility that would keep the anti-jungle flavour.

	14-01-2004 09:00									#14
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No! Lowering the cost or giving them ATAR will make them super overpowered. They'll out-scout anyone else and gain too much from goody huts.

My suggestion: lower the cost to 15 shields and remove ingore-movement-penalty things. If JW of Aztecs is balanced, CS will be balanced, too.

	14-01-2004 09:29									#15
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With Chasquis at cost 15, regular scouts would still be more cost-effective than Chasquis for the early goody hut race under most circumstances. For the cost of two Chasquis, you could get three conventional scouts, and the only time two Chasquis could cover more territory than three conventional scouts in a given amount of time would be when there is a whole lot of hill and mountain country around a player's starting position. (That's why I think giving Incas the choice of whether to build Chasquis or regular scouts would be a good idea.)

Chasquis would still have some clear advantages over other scouts. They could hunt barb camps for gold if they're willing to risk their lives instead of having to run from them. They could keep exploring after most of the huts are popped to uncover more of the map instead of getting killed by barbs. Or they could come home to serve as MPs and homeland defenders after their scouting is done. But those abilities are hardly overpowering, and UUs are supposed to be better than the conventional units they replace.

Nathan

	14-01-2004 09:46									#16
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3 scouts cost more than 2 CS because of maintainance. Plus, a bit fewer mountains actually help CS rather than hurt them. With mountain chains, normal scout can peform mountain hopping and don't lose very much compared to CS. But with a lone mountain, what if you your scout start a turn right beside it? Move onto it and waste a move point? Or ignore it and lose the greater range of sight?

BTW, all UU should be able to start golden age. That's why they give back Korean Hwach'a lethal bombardment in C3C. And F-15 can start golden age, too, either by air fighting or by bombing.

Last edited by Risa on 14-01-2004 at 10:03

	14-01-2004 09:51									#17
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you forget jungle mountain chains.

	14-01-2004 10:43									#18
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Despotism has a high enough free unit support level per city that maintenance is rarely an issue after a civ has two or three cities (except maybe if it's trying an early archer rush or some such). So I don't view the extra unit support for a regular scout compared with a Chasqui as a major issue. There may be a few relatively extreme strategies - such as building huge numbers of scouts very early - that would be exceptions, but I'm skeptical as to how sound such strategies would be.

I guess in addition to mountain ranges, Chasquis can always take advantage of hills or mountains in the middle of forests or jungles (or in other situations where a conventinal scout's only good alternative to going on a hill or mountain its first move would be to go on a forest or jungle instead). But I still think that on average, three scouts can cover more ground more quickly than two Chasquis in the early game.

	14-01-2004 15:48									#19
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ATAR may be edging towards too powerful if paired with anything else - as they are Expansionistic there will be no negative outcome from any hut, and with ANY attack rating they become not only a faster scout, but a super-fast warrior of sorts. A defense of 1 would allow the chance (albeit quite slim) of a GA, but I don't think it's worth giving MORE of a boost to them because we feel the need to throw in the chance of a GA for the sake of it.

ATAR, normal Scout stats and having the Chasqui available from the word go sounds fine - they get a better scout. That's what most UUs in the game are - taking an existing vanilla unit and adding to it in some way. Especially since what happens at the start of the game affects the sum of the game so much more dramatically than bonuses in later times, this is enough, I think.

	15-01-2004 01:51									#20
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Increasing the movement to 3 and allowing the Incas to build normal Scouts (they even start with one, after all), sounds like a good compromise:

• Keeps the stock C3C feel of increased movement on highlands.
  
• Movement per shield cost will be between 1.5 (CS moves 3, Scout moves 1) and 0.5 (CS moves 1, Scout moves 1) times that of a normal Scout.
  
• Ensures that the Incas are never worse off than if they didn't have a UU at all.
  
• Triggers a GA
  
• The AI will actually build their UU
  

	15-01-2004 03:37									#21
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I think reducing the cost is a better way to balance the unit than increasing its power is. Granted, a lot of that has to do with my view that the increased cost of the Jaguar Warrior in C3C is a bad thing for SP, which makes reducing the cost of both the Jaguar Warrior and the Chasqui reasonable. But the same stats at a lower cost also preserve the stock feel better (in my opinion) and avoid giving the Incas as huge an advantage in making contact with civs on the far end of a pangea.

Nathan

	15-01-2004 06:16									#22
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Another bonus if they have A/D values - can act as garrisons once exploration is over.

	15-01-2004 07:50									#23
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AI already builds a number of CS under stock rules.

	15-01-2004 07:53									#24
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Sure they do, but they wouldn't build them if they had zero attack, as in other proposals.

	15-01-2004 23:24									#25
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CS should definitely be able to trigger a GA, like every other UU in C3C. But I like the idea of making normal scouts available for the Inca.

	16-01-2004 07:42									#26
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An interesting feature of this unit is that since the AI builds them, and they upgrade to Explorers (at zero cost), the AI will end up with many Explorers.

I wonder what the AI does with its Explorers! They don't normally build any. Will they slip up to 6 squares through enemy land and pillage, like humans do?

	16-01-2004 17:04									#27
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Does the AI upgrade UUs? I would think it would be better if it didn't bother upgrading these...

	16-01-2004 17:05									#28
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Yes, it upgrades them if it's already triggered its GA. Otherwise, no.

	19-01-2004 18:49									#29
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Under consideration:

A) No change.
B) Allow Incas to build regular Scouts.
C) Reduce cost to 15 shields and remove movement bonus on hills/mountains.
D) Reduce cost to 15 shields.
E) Increase movement by 1.
F) 0.0.1 ATAR. Scout upgrades to Chasqui.

If proposals C, D, or E win. We may have another vote later to decide whether the Incas should also build regular Scouts.

Voting on Friday, by ordering of proposals.

Last edited by alexman on 21-01-2004 at 21:26

	20-01-2004 03:41									#30
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I support D, lower the cost but keep the unit the same otherwise. Even with the movement bonus, a 15-shield Chasqui will only very rarely be more cost-effective in the early hut race than a 10-shield regular scout. Take away the movement advantage and the Chasqui has only the same early scouting ability for one and a half times the cost (although its ability to survive barbarian attacks will give it an advantage later on). Also, changing the cost but leaving the unit the same otherwise is a smaller change, giving players less to keep track of when moving back and forth between the standard rules and the AU Mod.

By the way, for this round, should B be interpreted as, "Keep the Chasqui as it is but also let the Incas build regular scouts"?