14-01-2004 03:54									#1
	Fix The Ai Declaring War On Friendly Subs! Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

This bug has got to be the most annoying in C3C. This happens when a Civ tries to move a ship onto the square that one of your subs is in.

Instead of moving around the sub, the ship attacks and declares war. Most of my wars in the modern era occur through this very frustrating mechanism!!

	14-01-2004 05:35									#2
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It's in the list of bugs to be fixed
(but isn't yet).

As an interim solution, I intend to have my subs escorted by surface ships unless I don't mind a new war.

	14-01-2004 05:44									#4
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can't trust subs

	14-01-2004 06:00									#5
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This would near the bottom of my concerns. So easy to avoid.

	14-01-2004 06:13									#6
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good if you want to start a war with another civ - just push out a sub and let the bug do the work.

	14-01-2004 06:48									#7
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 This would near the bottom of my concerns. So easy to avoid.

I don't think you get it. You are setting the bar so low it will have to look up to mediocrity.

	14-01-2004 07:17									#8
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Hum, I said it is of no concern to me, why would you think I don't get it. What is not to get?

What does it have to do with mediocrity? I do not make subs in most games and when I do they are part of a fleet or on look out out of the sea lanes.

Why are you trying to make it personal. I thought you wanted me off your back? It is just my perspective, it is neither right nor wrong.

	14-01-2004 07:48									#9
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I have to say I have never had this happen (maybe because I never build subs). I can see that it would be extremely irritating when it does happen, but surely it's not the most annoying bug in the whole game...? I mean, does this happen *often*?

	14-01-2004 08:21									#10
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 This would near the bottom of my concerns. So easy to avoid.

Alright for you but what about senseless AI-AI wars sometimes on those they have alliances or MPPs with.

I think they've fixed the player declaring war on the AI by running into their sub bug at least.

	14-01-2004 08:30									#11
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wasn't this fixed in PTW? I can't recall, rarely use subs myself.

	14-01-2004 10:06									#12
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Yeah, an ongoing problem this is.

	14-01-2004 11:33									#13
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 This would near the bottom of my concerns. So easy to avoid.

How would you avoid this vmxa? I have never encoutered this in my games (due to not building subs at all unless at war), but it might be a help for those to whom this is an annoyance to know all the ways around it. I can think of either not building subs, not having subs anywhere near the enemy, or having surface ships scort all subs. Any others?

	14-01-2004 12:27									#14
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That is the easiest way, don't build subs. If you do build them send them out with surface ships and the AI will not run into them. The final choice is to park them in locations that are not likely to encounter ships. This can be done as you have seen the AI ships moving around and will have a good idea of their paths.

	14-01-2004 13:43									#15
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It's not only subs, it is stealth units in general. In the Middle ages scenario I twice saw a DoW of Byzantium vs the Abbasids, because a settler/defender pair stumbled into an assasin. I assume so at least, I couldn't see it either, I (Germany/HRE) was down there because I had some "business" to do myself. In an epic game of mine I had three (!) AIs declare war on me within 2 turns, because I dared to heal a wounded privateer in a coastal city of mine. Since the AIs mercilessly hunt privateers (and always know by "magic" where they are ), they bombed them even in the city, not caring that this means war. Serves me right, btw, I was the one who harassed them.

It is a nasty bug which needs to be fixed, because it prevents the subs to be used as what they are intended to be and reduces them to ordinary warships. And I agree with jimmytrick, to dismiss an obvious bug only because it's secondary due to the own playstyle isn't the right way to go. And "That is the easiest way, don't build subs." is for certain not a solution.

	14-01-2004 16:25									#16
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The problem is all invisible units. I got caught using a Cordovan assassin in the Middle Ages Conquest. The AI knowing where your subs are seems inconsistent. In 2 starts in WWII in the Pacific as Japan a US battleship steamed straight out from from Honolulu and sank one of my subs when there wasn't a US sub or destroyer in range that could "know" it was there.

	14-01-2004 17:55									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph It is a nasty bug which needs to be fixed, because it prevents the subs to be used as what they are intended to be and reduces them to ordinary warships. And I agree with jimmytrick, to dismiss an obvious bug only because it's secondary due to the own playstyle isn't the right way to go. And "That is the easiest way, don't build subs." is for certain not a solution.

Guess the gracious ally bit is going back in my signature. I was under the (mistaken) impression the fix would be in sooner rather than later, but given that it's not in 1.15, I guess we have to wait.

Unlike some people, it really ruins the late game for me. I like using subs, and I like using them as intended, not within an artificial bug-induced set of rules.

	14-01-2004 19:23									#18
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV The problem is all invisible units. I got caught using a Cordovan assassin in the Middle Ages Conquest. The AI knowing where your subs are seems inconsistent. In 2 starts in WWII in the Pacific as Japan a US battleship steamed straight out from from Honolulu and sank one of my subs when there wasn't a US sub or destroyer in range that could "know" it was there.

I pretty much agree with this. It's not so much an issue of priority, or even "not building" to avoid the problem, although I understand that position.

I'm not a big sub person myself, but I'd like to think every feature, especially a feature as important as stealth, is working as they are intended... since it appears the problem also occurs with other stealth units and I'm sure modders who want to add stealth traits to their own units would want this fixed too.

	14-01-2004 22:47									#19
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Sir Ralph I would agree that it should be fixed, so if I gave the impression that it should not, I am sorry. All I was intending to say was that it was not all that improtant to me, in comparison with some other issues.

Before lethal bombardment, I had little use for subs. They are more useful now as I need to find those carriers. Before, I was not concerned about a bombing run, now I am.

So to jimmytrick I apologize. Thinking about the carriers, it is more important than I had originly thought.

	15-01-2004 05:59									#20
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I haven't seen this in C3C yet as I've built no subs, but I do remember back in unpatched, plain vanilla Civ3 several of my Transports caused a war because I ran into enemy subs. It seems that I always lost my Transport and Transported, but if I ever found an enemy ship w/ my sub and attacked (intentionally), I always lost. I've never had much use for subs since, but I can see how this would be annoying (again).

Steven

	15-01-2004 06:29									#21
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I agree and agree.

It is easily *avoided* for the moment, yes. But that is not the point, it should be fixed, so that stealth units can be used as intended. Hopefully a patch issue.

	15-01-2004 13:31									#22
	Re: Fix The Ai Declaring War On Friendly Subs! Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by =DrJambo= This bug has got to be the most annoying in C3C. This happens when a Civ tries to move a ship onto the square that one of your subs is in. Instead of moving around the sub, the ship attacks and declares war. Most of my wars in the modern era occur through this very frustrating mechanism!!

Fireaxians :

You can't leave this bug inside !!!

People will riot and will pester you with my support


Please fix it in the next patch


Gunter

	15-01-2004 23:51									#23
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ZoC, remember in Civ2 you could not bump into subs. You would be scratching your head wondering why you could not move into that tile. Then you go, oh must be a sub.

	16-01-2004 01:36									#24
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I expect it's really annoying if you and an ally AI are attacking the same place and one of your ally's ships runs into one of your subs...

	16-01-2004 15:46									#25
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As i've said earlier, I agree with both sides of the discussion. At the end of the day though, I think it has to be fixed. It is in many ways a critical element of the game.

I know playstyles differ, but subs being used as pickets, is a viable strategy and I'd hate to see this bug go unfixed.

	16-01-2004 20:15									#26
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Just had a thought......quick fix....should work for now..but this is defo a bug which needs fixing.


This isnt a perfect solution...but to prevent acidental AI v AI wars being caused by this bug...you could flag subs in the editor as "requiring escort". this means the AI will always try and keep a surface ship with them...thus preventing acidental attacks.


It will also diminish the stealthy purpose of subs but its the best idea i can think of that isnt just stopping the AI builings subs at all.

(i'm at work at the mo...so i havent tried this...but it should work...let me know if it does or doesn't).

	16-01-2004 20:52									#27
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In the perfect world (probably beyond what can be done in a patch) if any AI unit ran into an invisible unit while you were in their territory and didn’t have an ROP, war would be declared, as that is a form of spying. But open waters, foreign waters and your territory, it’s just plain annoying.

One of my rare attempts at a Diplomatic Victory was blown because of this bug. Yes, I could have gone back and reloaded and replayed the turn, moving or disbanding the subs, but I am loathe to replay turns that late in the game on a Large map since even in peacetime I spend a great deal of time moving scores of units around the map.