14-01-2004 16:00									#1
	Tom Hurndall - Free at last... Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Peace activist Tom Hurndall has been brain dead for months, but last night his body finally succumbed to pneumonia.

Full story - Reuters

If everyone was as brave and humane as this guy, there wouldn't BE any conflict in the Middle East.

I don't thirst for justice or revenge over this, I'm just both very sad (that he's dead) and very... not happy, but kind of inspired.

I pray for peace, peace between all peoples, especially, peace in the Middle East.

	14-01-2004 16:07									#2
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Just you wait for the knuckle dragging Repugs and Likudniks to trash his memory.

	14-01-2004 16:08									#3
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quote: The Israeli army said late last year it had arrested a soldier in connection with the shooting. He has since been charged with grievous bodily harm for shooting Hurndall.

Let's hope those charges are upgraded to murder. That's what sometimes happens in US criminal cases where the victim dies mid-trial.

	14-01-2004 16:12									#4
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Whatever happened to the soldiers involved with bulldozing that girl sometime ago? Did they ever face justice?

	14-01-2004 16:51									#5
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quote: Just you wait for the knuckle dragging Repugs and Likudniks to trash his memory.

I'd give it a go, but I honestly have no idea who this guy is.

	14-01-2004 16:59									#6
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The activist's supporters say he was dressed in a bright orange jacket and was helping Palestinian children cross a street under fire in the town of Rafah near the border with Egypt when he was shot.

The soldier initially maintained he had opened fire on a man armed with a pistol but later "admitted to firing in proximity to an unarmed civilian as a deterrent", the Israeli military said.

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Just you wait for the knuckle dragging Repugs and Likudniks to trash his memory.

Yes, I'm sure the average Republican is going to be first in line to smear his memory under such a tale. Good to see we can all dream up our opposition in an indignant huff, now.

	14-01-2004 17:10									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Just you wait for the knuckle dragging Repugs and Likudniks to trash his memory. I'd give it a go, but I honestly have no idea who this guy is.

That's OK. When your dead, nobody will bother clicking the link to see who you were, how you died, and if anybody was actually responsible.

	14-01-2004 17:12									#8
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quote: That's OK. When your dead, nobody will bother clicking the link to see who you were, how you died, and if anybody was actually responsible.

I seriously doubt there will even be a link...

	14-01-2004 17:22									#9
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I had enough of all kind of peace activist that think that Gaza, Jenin and other war-zones are some kind of a big summer-camp.
Some of those people are holding an amazingly arrogant state of mind, thinking that the fact they're international peace-activists make them invulnerable.


My condolences to that family

	14-01-2004 17:27									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka Yes, I'm sure the average Republican is going to be first in line to smear his memory under such a tale. Good to see we can all dream up our opposition in an indignant huff, now.

Going by what some of them said about the bulldozer chick it's not an unreasonable expectation.

	14-01-2004 18:25									#11
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I have sympathy for soldiers in these sorts of situation.

They know they may face armed opponents yet they are also surrounded by innocent civilians.

Of course if each and every one could keep their heads at all times the number of cases where innocent people were hurt could be minimised. But they are also surrounded by hostility and the reality is that they are jumpy.

When something like this happens the soldier concerned takes some action in the heat of the moment and then afterwards, when some horrible consequence results, he has to go back and try to work out exactly what happened and exactly why he did as he did. It would be hard enough to recall such things at the best of times but now he gets to do so in circumstances where he feels guilty and is being blamed.

We had a case in the UK not so long ago where a soldier was convicted of murdering an Irish youth at a check point. For reasons best known to themselves young Irishmen steal cars and run them through army checkpoints. From the point of view of a soldier manning the checkpoint a car approaching at high speed may be full of joy riding kids or it may be full of IRA gunmen.

On this occasion the soldiers opened fire and one of the kids died.

The soldier who fired the fatal shot was identified and tried. His conviction rested on expert evidence which showed that the fatal shot was fired as the car had crashed through the checkpoint and was driving away. By then it was clear that those in the car did not intend an attack.

Well - it was clear to all of us looking at the events at our leasure and under no stress. Which hardly applies to the young soldier who fired the fatal shot. The difference in time between the car approaching the checkpoint and leaving it was literally a split second. And he would not have been human if he was not wrought up.

Anyway, as I say, I feel sympathy for them. It cannot be thought they set out with an intention to kill children who are strangers to them. I am sure, in fact, that they set out intending to protect people. And to do so in circumstances where that may take some bravery.

That they finish up carrying the awful knowledge that they have caused some child's death is bad enough. That society should judge them harshly as well seems to me too much.

We put them into these impossibly difficult circumstances. Subject to a reasonable (and sympathetically judged) level of discipline on the part of the individuals the responsibility for the consequence of employing armed force lies with those who authorise it.

	14-01-2004 18:29									#12
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quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader ... We put them into these impossibly difficult circumstances. Subject to a reasonable (and sympathetically judged) level of discipline on the part of the individuals the responsibility for the consequence of employing armed force lies with those who authorise it.

By that logic, you'd either court martial the CO (which undermines the WHOLE of the Nuremberg trials) or the politicians (who have, always been and probably always will be teflon coated).

Sorry. "I was only obeying orders" means jack sh1t, post 1945.

	14-01-2004 18:46									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Just you wait for the knuckle dragging Repugs and Likudniks to trash his memory.

Why would they bother, when they have you instead to target for some witty repartee?

	14-01-2004 18:51									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola Why would they bother, when they have you instead to target for some witty repartee?

Ah, as predicted, the subhuman wit of imbeciles rears its wooden head.

He who asks for a knuckle-dragging Repuglican, that man shall receive tenfold his expectation.

	14-01-2004 18:52									#15
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Ag, you can hand it out - but you really can't take it.

Could I trouble you to make space for a PM?

And please have a little respect and take your cat fights somewhere else.

	14-01-2004 19:50									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola Why would they bother, when they have you instead to target for some witty repartee?

That reminds me of something from Seinfeld.

(George is eating lots of seafood.)

Co-Worker - Hey George, the ocean called. They're all out of shrimp.

(George stands, having expected this)

George - Well, the Jerk store called, and they're all out of YOU!

Co-Worker - Why would they care? You're their number one best seller!

(Laughs)

George - Well...I slept with your wife!

(Stunned silence)

Boss - George...his wife's in a coma...




I can't wait for the DVD...

[/threadjack]

	14-01-2004 19:58									#17
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous That reminds me of something from Seinfeld. (George is eating lots of seafood.) Co-Worker - Hey George, the ocean called. They're all out of shrimp. (George stands, having expected this) George - Well, the Jerk store called, and they're all out of YOU! Co-Worker - Why would they care? You're their number one best seller! (Laughs) George - Well...I slept with your wife! (Stunned silence) Boss - George...his wife's in a coma... I can't wait for the DVD... [/threadjack]

Looking forward to you feeling sorry about someone croaking. Oh yeah...

Hey, why not try that line about sleeping with other people's wives in the real world? The thought of your head getting busted really fills me with glee.

Hey, if you get hit really hard, you might even end UP in a coma. What a barrel of laughs that would be.


Arsehole.

	14-01-2004 22:40									#18
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quote: Going by what some of them said about the bulldozer chick it's not an unreasonable expectation.

Not smart to stand in front of the bulldozer, while the machine is in operation.

This is an entirely different situation. Thanks for bringing it to our attention Cruddy.

	14-01-2004 22:41									#19
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I think some people need to CHILL... and stop the personal crap.

	14-01-2004 22:42									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Not smart to stand in front of the bulldozer, while the machine is in operation.

Not nearly as dumb as standing infront of a machine gun while it's in operation.

	14-01-2004 22:47									#21
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If the operator can't see you, it's not smart.

If you're a pacifist, and stand in front of a machine gun, the soldier cannot say that he did not see you. In the case of the bulldozer, the operator never saw the woman in front of him.

	15-01-2004 02:49									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Ag, you can hand it out - but you really can't take it. Could I trouble you to make space for a PM? And please have a little respect and take your cat fights somewhere else.

That's not the point. Some people ridiculed the bulldozer girl which I didn't think was funny at all.

I hope no one stoops as low for this one either.

Nor do I think we should make jokes about the victims of suicide bombings.

	15-01-2004 03:32									#24
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Tom Hurndall - may he rest in peace.