14-01-2004 20:20									#1
	ToE Run. Can this be done? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

In this game, I've tried several times and failed to get the ToE to catch-up w/ everyone on techs. To keep me from further frustration, I thought I'd let some 'Poly members give me some pointers.

Edit2: I've been beaten to EVERY Wonder (except Smith's), but have managed to capture several. I want this Wonder! /Edit2

Game Info:
Emperor, Japan, Standard, probably Continents
Civs left: Japan, Aztecs (KAI), Zulu, Celts, Dutch (weak)
I'm currently at Peace w/ everyone. Everyone else is at war w/ Netherlands.

Edit: No patch--C3C 1.00, Accelerated Production=On, Preserve Random Seed=Off /Edit




Some thoughts so far:

I was (still am) behind in techs. Everyone else is working on Industrial Techs and I noticed that no one had Printing Press. So I researched it as it was cheaper than any other tech. I also researched Democracy and was able to sell both to everyone else for lots of cash.

I keep missing ToE by 2-3 turns even w/ Palace prebuild. Texcoco generally gets it before me. I've got 2 productive cities, FreeSetlerCity and Nicea. Coal will be found on the Mountain WNW of Nicea 4-7 (currently unroaded) once Steam is learned.

Can anyone play this one to ToE (and get it) AND let me know how you did? Or just give me some pointers to improve my game?

Thanks.

Steven

P.S. There are 2 laden Galleys (2x Samurai, 1 Worker, 1 Settler) headed to found new towns. One is headed to the Forrest square between Washington and Chicago to snag Silks from Aztecs. The other is going somewhere near Celts/Zulu (I'd been settling near the Gold next to Stavanger.)

Trying to attach game file. If unsuccessful, I will post a link.

Attachment: toerun.zip
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

Last edited by steven8r on 14-01-2004 at 23:17

	14-01-2004 20:27									#2
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From the screenshot, it looks to me like you don't have enough mines.

Free Settler City, for instance, has a roaded, but not mined, hill it should be using. The forest tiles should be chopped and either mined or irrigated, and then the city can use more mountains (also in need of mines).

Dunno if you have the workers needed to do all of that in time to make a big enough difference, though.

-Arrian

	14-01-2004 20:29									#3
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Some more thoughts:

Rubber will showup SSE of TundraTown in the Forrest, and Oil will appear in the Forrest E of Ashes of Varna.

One playthrough of this game, Aztechs declared war on me and my Samurai (plus Arty and defending Infantry) were able to keep him from taking any of my cities, however I could not press him).

Edit: I called for Peace when he sent in the first Tank (which my 4x Samurai Army dispatched!). But I got scared. Plus his Bombers were totally devastating my cities. Got about 12 MGL's from that fight though--mostly used them to build Factories). /Edit

The Zulu and Aztecs are the researchers in this game and I'm trying not to let them out-do me too bad.

Steven

Last edited by steven8r on 14-01-2004 at 20:44

	14-01-2004 20:31									#4
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Realmsbeyond Civ's site has a nice tip on using Micromanagement to get those few extra shields to shave a few turns off of wonders.

I'm not completely clear on it, but it involves working a few turns at a time with a food deficit to work more high-shield tiles, then before starvation, switch back, build some food surplus, rinse, repeat.

At least, that's how I read the tip on RBC.

If you already know this and are doing it, just ignore me.

	14-01-2004 20:36									#5
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Arrian, more mines--check. I do have a save about 40 years before this one. I might have to go back and load that one to build more Workers. I can have some more Workers fairly quickly if I need to in this current game though. I will take that under advisement.

Ducki, I have not been doing that. Thank you for the tip. (It sounds like it might not be too unlike the MM needed for pump cities).

Thanks for the quick input.

Steven

	14-01-2004 20:40									#6
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Currently, FreeSettlerCity can build a Palace in 12 turns. Nicea can do it in 15 (IIRC). I think that FSC would build it too quickly--I might have to lose some shields in that city for a few turns.

FSC can also build the Millitary Academy (already has Pentagon).

I generally lose-out Shakespere's to either Zulu Intombe or Aztecs Texcoco. Both beat me to it by just a few turns. So I've pretty much abandoned that. Sanitation isn't too far off so I don't know if I need the extra growth.

What are some of your thoughts?

Steven

	14-01-2004 20:43									#7
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What patch is it?

	14-01-2004 20:45									#8
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It's not patched. It's C3C straight-up.

Edit: I can't find a link to the 'middle' patch. I have the 1st Beta patch and the 3rd? one, but according to the readme, I need one in the middle. Can someone point me to it? I've got 112 and 115. I think it's something like 113 or so. /Edit

Edit2: This has the gpt bug in it. That's probably why the Aztecs are soooooo wealthy. However, I was hoping that I could benefit from the bug too. I try to get gpt deals as much as possible. /Edit2

Edit3: found the middle patch /edit3

Thanks,

Steven

Last edited by steven8r on 15-01-2004 at 02:13

	14-01-2004 20:53									#9
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DOH!!!

It just occurred to me that it's usually at this point that I switch gov'ts to get into Democracy. It seems that those 2 turns of Anarchy could very well be my problem.

I'll try mining Hills/Mountains between FSC and Nicea and NOT switching govt. Perhaps even w/ somewhat slower Workers this will help-out.

Steven

	14-01-2004 20:59									#10
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What tech path are you taking to Scientific Method? Are you getting Industrialization first and building factories (with prebuilding)?

If you finish a factory the turn you get Industrialization, or close to it, and then turn around and immediately start a prebuild for ToE, maybe that would work.

The Anarchy might hurt, yeah. But it does boost your workers speed, and given time, for a religious civ, the switch probably pays off. Maybe not in time for the ToE race, though.

How many shields is your Palace? FSC is 12 turns away from completing it... is that 12 turns from 600 shields? If so, well, it looks like your prebuild was premature. Unless you're aiming for Universal Suffrage there or something.

-Arrian

	14-01-2004 21:09									#11
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Arrian,

Accelerated Production. Palace is (I think) 300 shields. The 12 turns for FSC is starting-out w/ no completed shields. Nicea can do it in 15 if I switch the Samurai to Palace. Edit: Possibly quicker if I Mine more. Plus RR will be comming fairly soon. /Edit. Edit2: I can do Steam in 4 /Edit2.

I've generally been beelining to Scientific Method. The AI's are (somewhat) slowing-down w/ the Nationalism branch. From here, I've generally been switching to Steam, Electricity, Medicine, SM. (Order varies slightly depending upon what I can buy from AI's).

I generally can purchase Industrialization, but I don't think that I can build a Factory AND Toe.

Universal Sufferage is generally something that I don't even attempt.

In this game, ToE generally gets built by Aztecs in about 13 turns.

Steven

	14-01-2004 21:25									#12
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You can research Steam Power in 4? And perhaps Industrialization in 4 after that?

300/12 = 25 shields per turn in FSC. A factory is 200 shields (8 turns). Think about that.

It looks like FSC is maxed for pop, so here is what I'd try:

1) punch out 1 worker, set research to Steam Power. Bring hordes of workers in from wherever you can get 'em to help mine and eventually railroad.
2) worker complete, switch to palace. Use worker to help mine things.
3) Once you have Steam Power, RR the mined grassland tiles (those go fastest). Continue using the workers to mine things and the goal is to set the city up at Size12 with 0 food extra (or close to it) and maximum shields/turn. Research or trade for Industrialization.
4) Switch the palace prebuild to a factory. Research and/or trade your way toward Scientific Method.
5) Factory complete. This, plus added mines and rr's, should result in a huge production jump for the city.
6) Use Universal Suffrage as a prebuild for ToE. Hopefully this will not get built prior to you getting Sci Method.
7) Build ToE.

During this process, take your 2nd best production center (Nicomedia, Capital City, or perhaps even Tundra town once RR's allow it to use more hills by boosting the grassland irrigation tiles) and use the best prebuild you can to get a factory build ASAP, and then start it on a prebuild for Hoover.

What do you have available for prebuild use besides your palace?

-Arrian

	14-01-2004 21:26									#13
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Crosspost...

13 turns ?

I'm really not used to Accelerated Production.

-Arrian

	14-01-2004 21:31									#14
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Prebuild options,

FP, Millitary Academy, Palace, (possibly buy Free Artistry and do a Shakespere prebuild).

Free Settler City has plenty of Food. That's why the Forrests are still there--to give 2 Shields. I'll try playing w/ RR the Plains to boost food so that more Hills/Mountains can be Mined and Worked.

Steven

	14-01-2004 22:49									#15
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I'm not used to accellerated production, and I have C3C 1.15 installed, but I'm pretty sure it can be done.

First thing is to turn off all the Governors IMO. Swap tiles so you are using the already mined hill by Nicaea. Then start disbanding units to finish projects, especially Courthouses in the NW portion of your empire. I got rid of everything but the Armies and enough Samurai to completely block off the border... the more you get rid of the better off you'll be.

Researching you can get Industrialization in 4, trade for Medicine (~80gpt +600g), trade both those for Nationalism (if you want it, the Dutch aren't doing anything with what you give them anyways). Then trade luxuries and gold (2 Luxuries + 300g) for Electricity, and that will let you be first to Scientific Method. You won't have enough gold to do this unless you get rid of a lot of Pikemen and Samurai though. I got Saltpeter in a trade (forget which) just to be safe, but you can probably pass on it.

I counted shields, and you can finish ToE faster without the Factory. Build Granaries and then Workers, and use those Workers to rail (and then mine) everything around FSC.. which should keep on the Palace (and then Suffrage) prebuild. Don't go to Democracy! You can have enough Workers to build your rails fast, and by dropping a lot of the dead weight units you won't need the lower support costs.

Reykjavic, Ironfish, and Tundratown were all building Workers in my game. Tundratown is already set up so that you can build 1 turn Workers there for as long as you want...

	14-01-2004 23:11									#16
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Not to be impudent or to sound ungrateful Aeson, but I request a minor clarification.

quote: Researching you can get Industrialization in 4, trade for Medicine (~80gpt +600g)...

What about Steam? Do I research or purchase?

Thanks,


Steven

	14-01-2004 23:24									#17
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I meant Steam, sorry. Traded Electricity + some gold for Industrialization.

Here's a 1.15f save where you get ToE. I traded Scientific Method to everyone, so it's close (their builds are a turn or two away... 4-5 turns from scratch!)

Had 3 1 turn Worker cities going for a while, just switched 2 of them off.

Attachment: steveugawa of the japanese, 860 ad.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	15-01-2004 01:51									#18
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Cool. I was pretty sure that it could be done, I just got frustrated trying several times and failing to do it. (Probably a 'Forrest and Trees'-type of thing.)

[Yodavoice] Try not. Do, or Do Not. There is no Try. [/Yodavoice]

Thank you Aeson, for showing me the way--showing me the 'DO', and to Arrian for all your helpful suggestions. I bow to the 'collective wisdom' of Apolyton.

Edit: spelling

Steven

Last edited by steven8r on 15-01-2004 at 02:11

	15-01-2004 02:01									#19
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One other question that probably should have come up even before the whole 'testing the objective' thing:

It IS possible to complete ToE. However, having accomplished said objective (as well as through continued saavy gameplay), is this game still.... 'winable'? Is it worth it to continue on? Can the tech disparity be overcome by this point? Or is it already too far gone by this point?

In order to get the research and complete the Wonders, Aeson had to dismantle most of Japan's military. In it's weakened situation, would Japan then become a prime target for 'Aztec Invasion'? Perhaps the various gpt deals will keep others from invading and cutting-off their cash supply.

Thanks again everyone (and a pre-emptive thanks to anyone else whom wants to have a go at it.)

Steven

	15-01-2004 02:44									#20
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I figured you'd ask. It doesn't seem right that you can play with almost no defense, but against the AI you can. You just have to be willing to set up some sort of buffer that will last you long enough to rev up military production.

I played on a bit after, and the Aztecs did invade just before I completed Hoover (which they sabatoged too). I lost the Silk city of course, and the two small coastal cities near the bottleneck. That was it. I probably wouldn't have lost anything if instead of Samurai I had kept the Pikes and upgrade them. Samurai just look so cool I kept them instead. I had also disbanded 2 of the Armies (the ones with Swords in them) to help rush a Factory.

Here is the first turn of the war:

Attachment: steveugawa of the japanese, 900 ad.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	15-01-2004 02:52									#21
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Now 8 turns later the Aztecs are facing war with everyone, and just asked for peace straight up, the war is 'won', and its up to your discretion how long to make it last. I've mostly killed their offensive capacity (about 30 Cavalry down), but they do have a lot of Infantry left.

3 cities capable of an Artillery per turn, two of them could be Infantry a turn. Also there are 2 Infantry Armies those Elite Samurai were nice enough to generate Leaders for. If you want to go the bombard route, you could take out the Aztecs pretty easily.

Would take a while though.

Attachment: steveugawa of the japanese, 980 ad.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	15-01-2004 03:08									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Also there are 2 Infantry Armies those Elite Samurai were nice enough to generate Leaders for.

Yeah, in one of the 'iterations' of this game I played, the Aztecs declared war on me and I was able to fend off their Cavalry w/ my Samurai. I got 12 MGL's just from that war alone! But I quit that game because I got waaay behind in techs and the Aztecs were starting to send in Tanks and their Bombers were even more devastating than my Artys.

I probably let that war go on too long, but I got the Zulus and Celts Allied with me and didn't want to break the Treaty--Celts did, though. And then, that same turn, they declared War on ME!!! Bad Celts!!

I'll try playing from the save and see what I can do w/ all the good input that I've recieved.

Edit: Spelling /Edit

Steven

	15-01-2004 03:13									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I probably wouldn't have lost anything if instead of Samurai I had kept the Pikes and upgrade them. Samurai just look so cool I kept them instead.

I have to agree. Plus, Samurai have better Attack than Cav has Defense (4 vs 3) AND Samis have better Defense than Pikes , but also a shorter upgrade path.

Plus, the Samis (at least several of them) were Elites.

Steven

	15-01-2004 06:35									#24
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Disbanded Armies...

Seriously, this is why 'poly is soooo great.

Good job Aeson!

	15-01-2004 07:03									#25
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With only 16 cities you have to be a bit picky about what Armies to keep around.

	15-01-2004 10:47									#26
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Heathen.

	15-01-2004 12:47									#27
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Practical.

	15-01-2004 14:54									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Disbanded Armies...

A man in love....

	15-01-2004 15:09									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Disbanded Armies...

Ah, someone who knows how to play....

	16-01-2004 05:35									#30
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Aeson,

I just had a look at your game 1 turn before ToE.

A couple of questions,

1. When did the Iron show-up near Nicaea? It's cool and all and Nicaea is just 2 turns away from IronWorks. I used to have 2 sources of Iron (hence the city, 'IronFish') but that disapeared shortly after I culture-bombed it from the Scandies.

2. From whom did you get all the gov't techs? I think I remember the Dutch having some of them. Just currious.

3. Ok, not really a question. Man! Japan's military is GONE!!! Yes, you mentioned that in a post, but MAN!! It just looks kinda weird.

4. Is the IronWorks a prebuild or do you intend to use Nicaea as a Super Factory town? I've rarely been able to build IW and don't know much about it except that it increaces production, I think, similar to another Factory and it may generate some Culture.

5. What about Universal Sufferage? Most of the AI's are probably already building it. And since they won't get ToE, should it even be attempted? I'll let it play a few turns and see.

6. Not really important, but I am currious--How did Celts end-up w/ Shakespere's Theatre? In various attempts I've played from the save either Japan or Zulu get it.

Most of these questions probably aren't earth-shatteringly important, but hopefully the answers may give me a glimpse into your mind (or at least your thinking), thus (hopefully) improving my own.
* Steven8r scratches head and wonders if he really wants to know how Aeson thinks.

Thanks for your helpful advise,

Steven