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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:33
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Sometimes it is.
Like this crap I was listening on radio, and seen a raging discussion all over here. It's time to apply for Unis and stuff again, and people are complaining that it's unfair (yes UNFAIR!), that some people can go to prep courses. Prep courses that are provided by businesses, and it costs money. So some people claim this is not equality, because they have better chances in theory, but poor people can't afford the prep courses that can cost several hundred euros (!!!111).
How the hell is this not equal? This has got nothing to do with equality, this is just lazy people complaining who didn't listen in the class first place and now realize they have to work for getting in. THey don't teach magic in those courses, even though I never took one. I couldn't afford one, and I didn't see anything wrong with some people taking them. You are the one who has to work it anyway. They're not hypnotizing people to get smarter. Jealous people, lazy people complaining and trying to drag everyone into same crap they are, like the whole society works.
There are so many people wanting communism, being TRULY equal in that sense. Most of them are just jealous.
It's a crime to make it in herem, and you'll be spit on for being such a criminal, not willing to share your hard earned money with the rest of the bums.
THat's my take on this. I mean, how stupid is that anyway? That's freaking so stupid I can't believe it, but believe me when I say that there are lot of people agreeing with that opinion. This is just one example of what finlandization has done to our country.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:33
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The Emperor, NO, the people who complain that they are not in equal position and what the opportunity for people to attend these things, they are the lazy ones.
THese are EXTRA classes, if you want to go and can afford, there's NOTHING wrong. When you apply, you have some books you need to read. You know it in advance, and so does everyone else. You get the same exam. What the hell is unequal? Because some people go to some dudes classes and pays for it to get prepping?
My point is, this is not a question of equality, and if someone says it is, they must be lazy.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:33
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Let me clear this out, I'm talking about equality, and how people screw it around when it's not about that. They think everyone should make the same amoun of money, have the same things in life etc. These people don't reckon the fact, that they are taking the exact same exam and stand the same chances, so they go saying that only rich kids gets in because they go to these fancy classes.
The classes are not SUPER expensive, the classes only are about learning the material (books). It doesn't cost anything to read the books. THere is no advantage IMO. If you read and work hard, you get in. If not, and if the 'rich kids' get better scores than you do, even if they were in fancy classes, then they deserve the place and you don't. Simple.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:33
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And I hardly see this as extreme view. I see the other option of banning these classes extreme. That would be so screwed up, it would be HORRIBLE. It's free country, you don't deserve the same opportunities if you don't work for them.
I believe everyone should get the same opportunities when it comes to school, but this is where it stops. There's no 'well he worked harder for it, that's unfair because I'm poor'. Scores count, and that's all there is to it, period. You can't get more equal than that.
If some people can use some levarage, then they should do it. No reason for others to drag them down. It's like they have to be sorry for having good position to start from.
It's like this: If I work hard for my goals and achieve them, it's good and I'm happy. If I really work hard and succeed, I should be able to benefit from it. We have the same opportunities when we are born. If you don't live to your full potential or if you fail on your way, it's not my fault, and it has got nothing to do with equality. Those who are able to succeed, they naturally will have more opportunities in the future, and that's how it should be. Once we step out of the kindergarden, and we are both healthy, in same school attending the same classes, getting out there and if you fail and I succeed later on, you can't blame me for succeeding, like I can't blame the one succeeding if I fail. That's jealousy to me. THat's blaming the system for own failures. Most people never even try, never take risks and go for it 110% all day long, and then say he got robbed by people who he was not unequal with. That's BS.
There can be cases where folks are unequal, I'm not saying this is every case.
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Bereta_Eder
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we can't be slaves of the free markets!@
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:33
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quote:
How the hell is this not equal? This has got nothing to do with equality, this is just lazy people complaining who didn't listen in the class first place and now realize they have to work for getting in. THey don't teach magic in those courses, even though I never took one. I couldn't afford one, and I didn't see anything wrong with some people taking them. You are the one who has to work it anyway. They're not hypnotizing people to get smarter. Jealous people, lazy people complaining and trying to drag everyone into same crap they are, like the whole society works. |
If prep courses add nothing, why are they so expensive? For such prizes, these course better improve your ability to do something, otherwise they are a huge scam.
You never took one of these courses, so of course you have no idea what they teach-how could you..but again, if they are valued so much, they must be effective. Here in the US one part of getting into a university (htough less now hopefully) is passing standardized exams- and the reality is thast any time you have an exam, he who knows how to navigate the exam itself will do better than anyone who does not, even if the one who does not is smarter, or better said, more knowledgeable about the topics covered.
lats take the GRE in the US: i took out one of these prep books form the free library (now there is equality): you find out that the firt 1/3 of questions are worth more to your score than the last 1/3. KNowing that, you know where and when to marshall your resources, and having that knowledge does give you an advantage. Now, as I said, such info is freely available if you go to a library. Now, the particulars over there in Findland, well, I don't know.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:33
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GePap, so what's wrong with that?
And in here, you get to see the last years exams most times from the internet for free anyway. It's not a huge secret. You have two books to read for example. I don't see how it is unfair if someone has the chance to go to prep course, and someone has to actually .. read the book! 
If you can't handle the books as good as the ones going to classes, I see absolutely no problem. Why don't they just think 'well I just have to do better than this, I failed, it wasn't enough! Next time I will bring my A game!' instead of 'yeah well rich kids gets in that's how it always is, I won't even bother next time'.
Besides, it's not 'only rich kids, no poor ones here'. They range from few hundred euros to maybe thousand euros a max. That's a lot of money, but it doesn't exactly say 'rich people only!'.
Most of the people don't even go to prep classes anyway. So, if you focus on the fact that you didn't get in because rich kids got fancy classes, then it's fooling yourself because there were tons of people who didn't go and got in, plus tons of people who were in those classes and still didn't get in.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
GePap, so what's wrong with that?
And in here, you get to see the last years exams most times from the internet for free anyway. It's not a huge secret. You have two books to read for example. I don't see how it is unfair if someone has the chance to go to prep course, and someone has to actually .. read the book! |
Again, and this is something you missed: people miss the fact that there is an art to test-taking itself: tests are designed in specific ways, and if you know the way the test was written, you know how to understand the question.
quote:
If you can't handle the books as good as the ones going to classes, I see absolutely no problem. Why don't they just think 'well I just have to do better than this, I failed, it wasn't enough! Next time I will bring my A game!' instead of 'yeah well rich kids gets in that's how it always is, I won't even bother next time'. |
Again, prep classes are not to bone up on the material, but on test traking skills- big difference.
quote:
Besides, it's not 'only rich kids, no poor ones here'. They range from few hundred euros to maybe thousand euros a max. That's a lot of money, but it doesn't exactly say 'rich people only!'. |
This is the one valid arguement you have, it seems to me.
quote:
Most of the people don't even go to prep classes anyway. So, if you focus on the fact that you didn't get in because rich kids got fancy classes, then it's fooling yourself because there were tons of people who didn't go and got in, plus tons of people who were in those classes and still didn't get in. |
I assume you are against affirmative action- yet the fact is most applicants aren't minorities, so if some white kids gets bumped, most likely it was becuase they were not good enough- not becuase someone else got a minor advantage..correct? See how that logic fails to work? At least, from someone with your positions?
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:33
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I mean sure it can be sad for some people that they can't go and they would really want to, but hey read the books, it's that simple. If they are not smart/talented/lucky enough to get in even if the other ones parents were rocket scientists and teaching their kid every day, then hey, you don't deserve it.
If I was to run 100 meters, and the other kid got all the fancy equipment for training and all, and lesser body fat and wins me, I can't say 'well he won me because he's rich kid with fancy training equipment'. People should stop blaming others for their own failures. I really think that. You gotta be the top dog to beat the other ones. It's a competition, not a privilidge. I can't choose to be Donald Trump. I have to work for it and only few people ever succeed in it, but I don't go blaming on them for my own shortcomings. That's just bad sportsmenship. And the people who succeed, they should feel good about it too, because they are winners. Poor people can be winners too, money doesn't say if you're winner or not. But winning your personal goals, that's winning.
And I'm not comparing this situation to for example the US where the tuition fees are high. I'm not saying the system there is unfair, but I think some people maybe don't have the same chances, or working harder means really working super hard, and still can come short even if they work very very hard. So I'm not saying this and thinking the US.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:33
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GePap, you have to realize that I'm speaking of my perspective as coming from Finland.
I know that exams are art too, but we don't really have much multiple question exams. They are VERY rare. Usually they are essay types. If you handle the area, you know how to answer. There is no mathematics to this.
And even if there is, if you're smart, you hack it. YOu can get the earlier tests anyway and answers to them. SO there you go, practice practice practice.
If truly deserve the spot, then you can handle it.
When I read material, I always think of what would the questions be, what's relevant and what is not. THis is as good as exam training anyway. You can make your own exams. What is more likely asked, that they might have a clue, but that's only cheating, if you study the area good and know your stuff, you get in if you are not having a bad day or being unfortunate in some other way.
So yes, you will know how the test will be. You can get the earlier tests.
When only the scores count, I see no reason for any kind of action. There should be NO actions taken.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Japher
Is educational success suppose to be based on natural talent, or on actual work?
I know guys who get perfect scores on standardized tests, go to school at the best colleges, and then flunk out because they are too lazy to do any of the work.
Since when did money = education? You can give the dumbest guy all the money in the world, but that still won't make him smart! |
Well, since the legacy system, or since if your parents give a college 1 million, yeah, thier kid will get in...
Educational access should be universal, to ensure that everyone develops to thier full potential. Actually, the US does a great job specifically becuase of the state university systems.Success will be based on talent and work- I worked far less than many of my fellows, and did better than of them due to talent. But I knew people with less talent and who worked harder who did better than I. there is no formula to success in education- the question is one of access to higher education being equal.
Also, to end a misconception- education is NOT about being smart, or making someone smart. Education is about giving you information and skills you can use. I know a lot of welle ducated idiots.
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16-01-2004 01:59
Why are you putting all the caps, I agree with that! That's what I'm saying.
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