17-01-2004 03:58									#31
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quote: Originally posted by TCO There was an article and have been letters about it in USNI Proceedings.

Who were the letters off? G.Khan and A.T.Hun?

	17-01-2004 04:03									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Snotty I thought some subs had machine guns on their conning tower. Did you mean like turrets or something?

No, some have guns on the deck of the boat, lower down than the conning tower, they would have to surface to kill off the survivors in the boats and so risk detection. I doubt any sub commander would run that risk

	17-01-2004 04:10									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Snotty Afaik those camps were not designed to kill people. People did die of illness, but measures were taken to stop it.

I don't think the German camps were initially designed that way either, they decided to change the policy in the last years of the war. But I doubt they gave a damned about deaths in any case.

Hitler actually admired the Brits and was disappointed when they declared war on him. That was not in his original plans.

	17-01-2004 05:22									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Snotty I thought some subs had machine guns on their conning tower. Did you mean like turrets or something?

location is irrelevant.

	17-01-2004 05:36									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Wasn't he co-inventor of concentration camps in the Boer war? The Germans liked that invention.

No, he wasn't- he was a journalist.

http://www.anglo-boer.co.za/concentration.html

http://www.anglo-boer.co.za/

	17-01-2004 05:38									#36
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Yeah, I misread the sentence. It what other ways has sub use changed?

	17-01-2004 05:41									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Frozzy You can't put early 20th century issues into today's moral standards because they are incompatible.

Well then I guess that puts Adolf Hitler in the clear too...

	17-01-2004 05:48									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs Well then I guess that puts Adolf Hitler in the clear too...

Not at all, his actions were viewed as abhorrent AT THE TIME as well, Churchills were not.

	17-01-2004 05:57									#39
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever Not at all, his actions were viewed as abhorrent AT THE TIME as well, Churchills were not.

So the same people appalled by Hitler's actions AT THE TIME we're polar opposite on their opinions of the henious suffer caused by the use of such weapons?

	17-01-2004 06:10									#40
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs So the same people appalled by Hitler's actions AT THE TIME we're polar opposite on their opinions of the henious suffer caused by the use of such weapons?

Don't put words in my mouth, dear fellow

What I was TRYING to get across is that a man is a product of his time and should be judged accordingly.

Hitler was considered 'henious' at the time, Churchill was not.

No-one gives the Roman Generals too much criticism these days for the practise of 'decimating' their legions for acts of cowardice?

And to those who say 'the victor writes the history', I would say Churchill's legacy would have still remained intact even if Germany had of won, Stalin would have been the villian of the piece.

	17-01-2004 06:39									#41
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Why is it right to kill troops sleeping in bunks in a troopship and not in lifeboats? What if the lifeboats are headed to land where they can renegage the fight?

	17-01-2004 06:41									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Snotty Yeah, I misread the sentence. It what other ways has sub use changed?

There was a time when the law of war required subs to surface and give warning. We kinda blow that off now.

Roland can write you a nice article on how the rules have changed over time.

	17-01-2004 07:03									#43
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Why is it right to kill troops sleeping in bunks in a troopship and not in lifeboats? What if the lifeboats are headed to land where they can renegage the fight?

Err. because they have surrendered? Subs are still bound under the GC in this situation?

Anyway, if you are that close to their coastline/friendly vessel that they can re-engage (sp? no, not me ) Then a sub commander shouldn't reveal his position for the sake of sinking a lifeboat anyway!

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE tell me havn't got (or are ever likely to have) some sort of command postion in one of the armed forces?

as for this statement:-

"There was a time when the law of war required subs to surface and give warning. We kinda blow that off now. "

-it's not big and it's not clever, stop trying to show off.

	17-01-2004 07:07									#44
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what is the showoff. It is common knowledge that the law of war has changed on subs. you asked for info and I gave you what i had.

As for the debate, regardless of your views, it is not as cut and dried as you think.

	17-01-2004 07:08									#45
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BTW, I haven't even advocated a position, you shitforbrains, buttlocked, kneejerk reactor. What I said was that there was debate.

And btw, what is your military command experience? And no, I have not held command. Need to be an O-5 on subs for that.

	17-01-2004 07:15									#46
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quote: Originally posted by TCO There was a time when the law of war required subs to surface and give warning. We kinda blow that off now. Roland can write you a nice article on how the rules have changed over time.

Surely that defeats the principle of a sub?

	17-01-2004 07:22									#47
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quote: Originally posted by TCO what is the showoff. It is common knowledge that the law of war has changed on subs. you asked for info and I gave you what i had. As for the debate, regardless of your views, it is not as cut and dried as you think.

No wonder youre not in command, you don't LISTEN, the only info I asked for was: which rightwing numbnut idiots wrote those letters to the USNI Proceeding about straffing lifeboats, you have failed to provide that information.

	17-01-2004 07:28									#48
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..and if you don't know what I mean by 'showing' off, then you won't realize what a gung-ho - deaths a joke - type of idiot you sound like when you post this:

quote: Originally posted by TCO There was a time when the law of war required subs to surface and give warning. We kinda blow that off now.

	17-01-2004 07:32									#49
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever No wonder youre not in command, you don't LISTEN, the only info I asked for was: which rightwing numbnut idiots wrote those letters to the USNI Proceeding about straffing lifeboats, you have failed to provide that information.

it was not a rightwing idiot. it was an ensign. There was an interesting discussion in the letters. you are prejudging the whole thing as an ann coulter thing without listening/looking.

go search the site ok/

	17-01-2004 07:34									#50
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever ..and if you don't know what I mean by 'showing' off, then you won't realize what a gung-ho - deaths a joke - type of idiot you sound like when you post this:

What's your problem? You think that it is reasonable to have subs surface? And if you think the forces out there don;t joke about the job, your a moron.

	17-01-2004 07:41									#51
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quote: Originally posted by TCO it was not a rightwing idiot. it was an ensign.

it is possible to be both? In fact, if you're the latter then you're more likely to be the former IMHO!

	17-01-2004 07:44									#52
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quote: Originally posted by TCO And if you think the forces out there don;t joke about the job, your a moron.

I know EXACTLY what goes on in the forces, I watch the Discovery channel AND I've read most of Tom Clancys books (except for the boring OP's ones), so don't tell me I don't know what goes on out there! Jeez!

	17-01-2004 07:47									#53
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Dang, you are up on it. Add in the civ playing and you got nailed.

FYI: the author is Holwitt and it is the July edition. You will have to get a hardcopy--the Proceedings site only gives the first couple sentences. The discussion which I referred to went on/off for the next several months in the letters column.

	17-01-2004 07:48									#54
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever I know EXACTLY what goes on in the forces, I watch the Discovery channel AND I've read most of Tom Clancys books (except for the boring OP's ones), so don't tell me I don't know what goes on out there! Jeez!

My mom gave me on of those Op ones for Xmas. i had to tell her it is not really the same. before that she gave me Clive Cussler for years and I never read it...

	17-01-2004 07:53									#55
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Dang, you are up on it. Add in the civ playing and you got nailed.

Yeah, thats what I thought! Civ 3 for the big picture and Clancy for details!

Joking aside, it's too late for me to look at those letters propery, but surely on principal it can't be right to gun lifeboats?

	17-01-2004 07:58									#56
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probably not. I guess it's equivalent to being in battle and not having time to take prisoners or resources to guard them. I think the law of war says that you are not allowed to kill them if they surrender.

But my point was that the discussion was not as cut and dried as one might think. article and letters also addressed other aspects of sub war where standards have changed over time. Was more interesting than one would think from just first glance. (I don't see how we can move further without you reading the article.)

And of course the reference was with respect to the idea of what is a legal weapon. Why is a bullet different than a gas?

	17-01-2004 08:09									#57
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Was more interesting than one would think from just first glance. (I don't see how we can move further without you reading the article.)

I understand! I'll have a look tommorrow, though it would be interesting to see how someone can justify shooting someone at sea against shooting them on land re. the GC? The sub always has the option of just leaving them there, which, granted, to a much lesser extent, so do the land troops

	19-01-2004 18:36									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Frozzy You can't put early 20th century issues into today's moral standards because they are incompatible.

This has got to be a new classic, to go side by side with the likes of 'I was only following orders', 'we were at war', 'we wanted to use a weapon so terrible, that it would end the war in weeks, and not months'.

I do agree with Ogie though, sdometimes it takes a bastard, but I also think there should be more recognition of Churchills crimes against humanity in British culture (yes- I consider the use of chemical weapons against villagers in an imperialist war to be a crime against humanity).

Churchill stood alone against the Third Reich when nobody else would, but he also was responsable for some evil things, British people should be more aware of that, especially when our prime ministers want our support to fight wars against leaders who were after all, following a British example.