26-01-2004 21:23									#391
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon In advanced industrialized societies pluralism is now the norm.

It might be true.
But what do you suggest? , That we disband Israel in a quick 5-year plan? and move 5.5 million israelis to North America?
And lets assume that 100% of the Jewish population is willing to move from isreal.
Why are you so sure that Canada and the USA will so willing to accept them?
Besides, when looking at the circumstances in which Israel was born you realize it was the same old world.

There is enough place under the sun for both of the nations.
The only problem is that neither of the sides (especially the Arab one) is willing to end this conflict in a total and final agreement.

	27-01-2004 09:38									#392
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Let's give a skinhead a sledge hammer and put him in the holocaust museum. I'm sure you'll love the performance he delivers.

Congratulations Osweld! You've perfectly captured the essence of that piece of obscenity posing as "art".

	27-01-2004 10:25									#393
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quote: Originally posted by Kull Congratulations Osweld! You've perfectly captured the essence of that piece of obscenity posing as "art".

Wow, so many words, so little said.

I won;t even try anymore to understand the people who think this offensive, for their worldview of art is too alien to my own for any sort of discussion, since to have a discussion you need some common assumptions- how anyone can assume that someone's picture surrounded in a pool of blood is some sort of endorsement for them is beyond me, really.

	27-01-2004 11:10									#394
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I won;t even try anymore to understand the people who think this offensive, for their worldview of art is too alien to my own for any sort of discussion, since to have a discussion you need some common assumptions- how anyone can assume that someone's picture surrounded in a pool of blood is some sort of endorsement for them is beyond me, really.

Well, here on my planet it seems pretty clear. I'm guessing that if you lived in a country that was experiencing a wave of suicide bombings and perhaps even knew some of the victims, well maybe - just maybe - glorification of that activity might muster up a little anger on your part. But since you don't live in that world, it is - to use your own words - "alien to my own". So by all means, continue to criticize that which you do not and cannot understand. And be sure to take a high moral tone while so doing.

	27-01-2004 12:05									#395
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Well put, Kull.

	27-01-2004 12:09									#396
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Could you read the accompanying literature that has 'the murderers' soon to be crying, and then later mentions the names of Jewish families who lost members to the bombers and says that indeed they are crying?

Like I said, I did not see a problem with the work itself, it was the... artists' (the term is used very loosely) attempts to explain it that tilted it for me.

	27-01-2004 12:23									#397
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Could you read the accompanying literature that has 'the murderers' soon to be crying, and then later mentions the names of Jewish families who lost members to the bombers and says that indeed they are crying? Like I said, I did not see a problem with the work itself, it was the... artists' (the term is used very loosely) attempts to explain it that tilted it for me.

If anything condemns this piece, it's the creator's need to explain it via some kind of written manifesto. I do not pretend to great knowledge in this arena, but it seems to me that one of the FUNDAMENTAL principles of art is that it should speak for itself! If you have to append a document to explain the darn thing, than it's.....I don't know WHAT it is, but art it ain't.

	27-01-2004 12:44									#398
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quote: and the red looked beautiful upon the white

quote: and the red looked beautiful upon the white

quote: and the red looked beautiful upon the white

quote: and the red looked beautiful upon the white

Somebody gave me a great suggestion for what the ambassador should have done - he should have taken twenty two pictures of each of the victims, and then he should have slowly, and silently, placed the pictures into the "pond" for the cameras. And waited until someone pulled them out again.

	27-01-2004 18:15									#399
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quote: Originally posted by Generalissimo It might be true. But what do you suggest? , That we disband Israel in a quick 5-year plan? and move 5.5 million israelis to North America?

Now, don't make promises you have no intention of keeping .

quote: Originally posted by Generalissimo And lets assume that 100% of the Jewish population is willing to move from isreal. Why are you so sure that Canada and the USA will so willing to accept them? Besides, when looking at the circumstances in which Israel was born you realize it was the same old world. There is enough place under the sun for both of the nations. The only problem is that neither of the sides (especially the Arab one) is willing to end this conflict in a total and final agreement.

As a first step to this total and final agreement - why not criminalise incitement to religious or racial hatred?

If you started locking up the hard core Zionist's (and the loudmouth's on the Arab side who live in Israel) it would help the cause of moderation no end.

Freedom to speak, fine. Freedom to abuse or declare fatwa - NO!

	27-01-2004 18:23									#400
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy As a first step to this total and final agreement - why not criminalise incitement to religious or racial hatred? If you started locking up the hard core Zionist's (and the loudmouth's on the Arab side who live in Israel) it would help the cause of moderation no end.

Why are Zionists linked here with people who incite religious hatred?

	27-01-2004 18:28									#401
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Why are Zionists linked here with people who incite religious hatred?

Try "Zion for the Jews, everyone else is a damned gentile".

You will notice the "hard core" prefix on my use of the word Zionist.

	27-01-2004 18:31									#402
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So I say that my home is for my family and that is religious or racial hatred of everyone else?

	27-01-2004 18:32									#403
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quote: Originally posted by Generalissimo It might be true. But what do you suggest? , That we disband Israel in a quick 5-year plan? and move 5.5 million israelis to North America?

No. Why not just give the Palestinians the vote like the South Africans did for blacks?

quote: Besides, when looking at the circumstances in which Israel was born you realize it was the same old world.[QUOTE] That was 60 years ago. [QUOTE]There is enough place under the sun for both of the nations. The only problem is that neither of the sides (especially the Arab one) is willing to end this conflict in a total and final agreement.

See... put the boot in again. It's them... IT'S THEM IT'S THEM.

	27-01-2004 18:32									#404
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Have you ever seen the images of their protests ?
They are the most radical people you can imagine (about the same level of crazyness compared to the members of Hamas).
Ironical though how both religions preach peace. Perhaps it's time for a new (preferably localized) great flood...

	27-01-2004 18:37									#405
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quote: Originally posted by Ned So I say that my home is for my family and that is religious or racial hatred of everyone else?

Ned, I am not so dumb as to start posting quotations from people I consider to be crazier than a sack of cut snakes.

* Cruddy thinks - "Holy crap, that's how my Brit Liberal thread started".

But if you REALLY want me to - I will. Just for the people who are too BONE IDLE to go look for themselves. For those who aren't so lazy, try searching for quotes from Kach, Kahane Chai, Gush Emunim, Moledat and the National Religious Party.

It's Holocaust Memorial day here in the UK. Do you really, really want this?

	27-01-2004 18:42									#406
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quote: Originally posted by Kull Well, here on my planet it seems pretty clear. I'm guessing that if you lived in a country that was experiencing a wave of suicide bombings and perhaps even knew some of the victims, well maybe - just maybe - glorification of that activity might muster up a little anger on your part. But since you don't live in that world, it is - to use your own words - "alien to my own". So by all means, continue to criticize that which you do not and cannot understand. And be sure to take a high moral tone while so doing.

Maybe you had some problems with reading comprehension at school, but my point is that I don't understand the idea that this is glorification, and by the poll, a supermajority of Poly posters also do not think this is glorification of her acts.

Also, my family is lucky not to have known victims of suicide attacks, given that the greatest suicide attack in history happened in my town.

	27-01-2004 19:02									#407
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Ned, I am not so dumb as to start posting quotations from people I consider to be crazier than a sack of cut snakes. * Cruddy thinks - "Holy crap, that's how my Brit Liberal thread started". But if you REALLY want me to - I will. Just for the people who are too BONE IDLE to go look for themselves. For those who aren't so lazy, try searching for quotes from Kach, Kahane Chai, Gush Emunim, Moledat and the National Religious Party. It's Holocaust Memorial day here in the UK. Do you really, really want this?

Not really. But if there are extremists who are racists or whatever, is a whole movement/philosophy to be tarnished by grouping the innocent with the guilty in one broad statement?

	27-01-2004 19:08									#408
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Not really. But if there are extremists who are racists or whatever, is a whole movement/philosophy to be tarnished by grouping the innocent with the guilty in one broad statement?

My proposal is that would be down to Israeli courts, not outsiders like us.

Of course, I doubt if Israel would adopt such a legal move - it would be too much like accepting that Arabs are people too.

	27-01-2004 19:10									#409
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon No. Why not just give the Palestinians the vote like the South Africans did for blacks?

Sounds reasonable. Conditions today are much more favorable to a peace than in 1948 where Arab armies attacked from all directions.

Still, if I were an Israeli, I would condition such a settlement on banning Hamas and other such terrorist organizations as political parties.

	27-01-2004 19:19									#410
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon No. Why not just give the Palestinians the vote like the South Africans did for blacks?

Well, 1+ million Arabs already have the vote. The others arent citizens - hence, they have no vote - in Israeli elections (with the exception of Palestinians in Jerusalem who, IIRC, do get to vote). Same way millions of non-citizens don't have the vote in the US.

They do have the right to vote in Palestinian elections.

	27-01-2004 19:42									#411
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Yeah, but Edan, granting the Pals citizenship in Israel is quite different than in '48 where the Jews would have been granted citizenship in a Palestine that had no effective government, constitution or laws.

	27-01-2004 20:40									#412
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy As a first step to this total and final agreement - why not criminalise incitement to religious or racial hatred?

I’m pretty sure we have laws against religious\racial\political\whatever incitement.
After the Rabin assassination the government put out whole bunch of laws referring to incitement. The pre1995 era was a judicial no man land's.

quote: Originally posted by Agathon No. Why not just give the Palestinians the vote like the South Africans did for blacks? THEM.

The Israeli Arabs can vote.
Palestinians cant and shouldn’t vote since the territories are not part of the state of Israel and hence the Israeli civil law is not valid over there. They can vote in inner Palestinian elections.

quote: Originally posted by Agathon See... put the boot in again. It's them... IT'S THEM IT'S THEM.

Can you be a little more specific?
We are to blame because after the holocaust we finally understood that we need our own state and the UN actually gave us that state? (Hell, even the USSR voted for the plan).
Or are we the blame because we won our independence war?

60 years, so what?
70 years ago Hitler rose to power, 85 years ago the communists got Russia under their grip.
60 years in history is not even the blink of an eye.

The Palestinian “Government” doesn’t want one democratic multi-ethnical country as you suggest. They want one Arab dictatorship from the sea to the Jordan as put in their words.
But because they know this scenario is unlikely they are aiming for an independent state in Gaza and the West Bank, that will be just another step to the annihilation of Israel (it’s a fundamental part of the Palestinian dogma but you probably don’t know much about it because you cant speak Arabic and more important you probably don’t know much about how Arabic countries and rulers tick, do you).
Speaking about Palestine in 1999 Barak offered them 95% of Gaza and the west bank plus Clinton promised them a generous international funding so they can build a decent country.
Arafat had no reason to suspect that Clinton is lying to him since the EU virtually funded him in the 90’s and part of the 00’s.
The offer was almost perfect but not perfect enough (Although it was the best deal he ever got). So he choose an armed conflict and now both of the sides pay the price of it.

	27-01-2004 21:37									#413
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quote: Originally posted by Generalissimo The Israeli Arabs can vote. Palestinians cant and shouldn’t vote since the territories are not part of the state of Israel and hence the Israeli civil law is not valid over there. They can vote in inner Palestinian elections.

Which begs the question why so many israelis live in the territories under Israeli Civil Law- it also brings to question why many pals should live under Israeli military law, and why pals living under palestinian civil law still have to comply with Israeli military decrees concerning thier movements, building of homes, so forth.

	28-01-2004 05:55									#414
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With the permission of the UN, Israel could annex the rest of Palestine and give the arabs there the right to vote.

I am not so sure that the Arabs in "Palestine" would be so keen on Right of Return and Reparations if they were to be part of the state of Israel.

	28-01-2004 08:38									#415
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Somebody gave me a great suggestion for what the ambassador should have done - he should have taken twenty two pictures of each of the victims, and then he should have slowly, and silently, placed the pictures into the "pond" for the cameras. And waited until someone pulled them out again.

Good idea, and then the artwork would have remained interperetive. It would have been a great move, but defacing it, was barbaric.

Re: the pictures.

Ever see what a piece of shredded metal from a vehicle struck by a hellfire missile looks like embedded in the side of a wall with a palestinian kid's brains seered to it like burnt hamburger? That's my picture for you.

	28-01-2004 09:24									#416
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Maybe you had some problems with reading comprehension at school, but my point is that I don't understand the idea that this is glorification, and by the poll, a supermajority of Poly posters also do not think this is glorification of her acts.

It's pretty clear that one of us has a problem with comprehension, but it's not me. Even ignoring the artist's pathetic written explanation, if you actually LOOK at the exhibit it's pretty clear that this suicide bomber is getting the full hosanna treatment. She shredded the lives of innocent people and is depicted as a smiling, "pure-as-the-driven-snow" saint. You want to know what real art is? Picasso's Guernica says it all, and he doesn't have to blatantly take sides or provide a written explanation to us ignoratii. The work speaks for itself - as - sadly, does the swedish obscenity. Case closed.