20-01-2004 10:24									#301
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Your premise of Israel being an illegitimate state is false. You'll realise if you bother to check back on how it came into existence. Or just quit repeating leftist propaganda because it's convenient to you.

You seem a bit trigger happy throwing accusations of racism around as well, which comes as no surprise.

	20-01-2004 10:29									#302
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Winston Your premise of Israel being an illegitimate state is false. You'll realise if you bother to check back on how it came into existence. Or just quit repeating leftist propaganda because it's convenient to you.

Really? So the Arab majority that actually lived there were responsible for saying to the Jews, "hey, why don't you just come and take our country?".

They got stiffed pure and simple.

You really aren't a very bright lad are you? You've had your backside kicked up and down this thread by various posters and all you can come back with is petty accusations of propaganda. Typical of the right on this issue, as per usual they have only prejudices in place of reasons.

What luck for them that the public wallow in ignorance like pigs in muck.

	20-01-2004 10:30									#303
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Winston And it's telling that you didn't comment on my claim that most of the Palestinians killed in the conflict weren't innocents (unlike the overwhelming majority of Israeli casualties). Maybe that's not so terribly important to you.

The vast majority are innocent. Go to http://www.btselem.org/, an Israeli human rights organization, that does a great job of detailing all the dead form both sides.

To put things in perspectives, 439 Palestinians under the age of 18 were killed by the IDF in the territories, while 576 total Israeli civilians have been killed in total. Now,

In total, the Palestinians have killed 988 people, of which 39 were foreigners and 115 were Palestinians themselves. The Israelis have killed 2590, of which 9 were foreigners.

This data does not include- any suicide bombers or pals killed by thier own bombs- Israeli-Arab citizens killed during the october 2000 riots, or Palestinians who died becuase they could not get mdecial treatment fast enough due to movement restrictions, as well as some odds and ends.

	20-01-2004 10:36									#304
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

On the number of people the Israelis have killed- one category is left unclear: 2289 Pals are listed ad being kiled by the IDF in the territories, while they state 126 were extrajudicialy exectued, while 85 other palestiians died as "colateral damage"

Now, given how they posted it, I assume those 211 Palestinians were not counted as part of the 2289. If they were, the israeli total goes down to 2379 killed. more than twice as many as the Palestinians, even including the Palestinian victims of intra-palestinian violence.

	20-01-2004 10:38									#305
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

So you believe the IDF kills Palestinian innocents in large numbers - what, for political purposes, good fun, because they're indoctrinated to believe it is God's will?

I will have to say the definition of what makes an innocent must suddenly have become very flexible.

	20-01-2004 10:40									#306
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Do I think they should blow themselves up in cafes? No. But what else are they supposed to do?

Here's a thought. Use diplomacy.

It managed to get them 95+% of what they had wanted, before Arafat threw it down the toilet.

	20-01-2004 10:40									#307
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit You all please don't call art what I could have done by myself, art died about 60 years ago and was replaced by obscenities that cover the complete lack of any trace of talent

The truth will hurt some.

	20-01-2004 10:43									#308
	Support Apolyton

quote: Palestinians 2573 Israelis 880 No. of whom were female 118 No. of whom were female 277 Non-Combatants killed by Opposite Side No. of whom were female 932 87 Non-Combatants killed by Opposite Side No. of whom were female 683 272 Combatants killed by Opposite Side 1194 Combatants killed by Opposite Side 179 People killed by actions of own side 324 People killed by actions of own side 20 Non-Combatants below age 12 74 Non-Combatants below age 12 36 Non-Combatant Males between ages 12-29 506 Non-Combatant Males between ages 12-29 169 Non-Combatants Aged >= 45 80 Non-Combatants Aged >= 45 219

Civilian casualties percentages:

Israelis: 932/2573= 36%

Palestinians: 683/880 = 78% (Not counting Palestinian non-combatants killed by Palestinians)

	20-01-2004 10:43									#309
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Winston So you believe the IDF kills Palestinian innocents in large numbers - what, for political purposes, good fun, because they're indoctrinated to believe it is God's will?

Yes- they shoot live rounds into protestors, they accept "coolateral damage" of all sorts. When armies start throwing lead into the air and don;t care about whom it kills all that much, people die., lots of them.

quote: I will have to say the definition of what makes an innocent must suddenly have become very flexible.

Yup, those 400 plus kids were all terrorist. You are hopeless.

	20-01-2004 10:48									#310
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Edan Israelis: 932/2573= 36% Palestinians: 683/880 = 78% (Not counting Palestinian non-combatants killed by Palestinians)

Yes, a bigger chunk of israeli casualties are "non-combatants". I never challenged that. Does not change the fact more Palestinians non-combatants have been killed by the Israelis than Israelis by Palestinians.

That Israel has an advantge in firepower and is able to kill a lot more combatants does not remove the moral implications of killing the civiliasns it does kill, anymore than the inbaility of Palestinians to kill as many combatants excuse their attacks against civilians.

	20-01-2004 10:51									#311
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Civilian casualties ratios could aid in the determination of who is the aggressor though, if you were ever in doubt.

	20-01-2004 10:54									#312
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by GePap Yes, a bigger chunk of israeli casualties are "non-combatants". I never challenged that.

Winston stated: "And it's telling that you didn't comment on my claim that most of the Palestinians killed in the conflict weren't innocents (unlike the overwhelming majority of Israeli casualties)."

That is correct: 64% of Palestinians killed were not innocents. 78% of Israelis killed were.


You stated "The vast majority are innocent. "

This is false. 36% is not a "vast majority", nor is it even a "majority".

	20-01-2004 10:56									#313
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Winston Civilian casulaties ratios could aid in the determination of who's the agressor, if you were ever in doubt though.

No, they determine what strategies each side can use, given their abilities. Israel has modern technology, the Palestinians do not. IN WW1, using this method would hardly tell you "who was the aggressor". It would not work for Korea either.

Lets not forget how this begun, back in 2000: the riots begun in September: by the beginning of November 2000, less than 10 Israeli Jews had died, over 100 Palestinians were dead, and 13 Israeli Arabs were dead. That is how this begun, if people have forgotten.

	20-01-2004 10:58									#314
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Edan Winston stated: "And it's telling that you didn't comment on my claim that most of the Palestinians killed in the conflict weren't innocents (unlike the overwhelming majority of Israeli casualties)." That is correct: 64% of Palestinians killed were not innocents. 78% of Israelis killed were. You stated "The vast majority are innocent. " This is false. 36% is not a "vast majority", nor is it even a "majority".

Fine, I was incorrect in that statement.

I will not waste my energy trying to squirm out of a mistatment when that would detract from a point:

MOre Palestinians civlians have been killed by the IDF than Israeli civilians by Palestinian militants. The difference lies in the capability- Israel is capable of taking out Palestinian combatants while the Plaestinians lack the weaponsry to do so, so they can only inflict large casualties by going after civilians.

The basic imbalance in power is what tilts the casualties, and why the palestinians are undoing their cause by going after Israeli civilians..they have almost 9almost, but not yet) removed the moral clarity the situation had once.

	20-01-2004 11:00									#315
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Edan Winston stated: "And it's telling that you didn't comment on my claim that most of the Palestinians killed in the conflict weren't innocents (unlike the overwhelming majority of Israeli casualties)." That is correct: 64% of Palestinians killed were not innocents. 78% of Israelis killed were. You stated "The vast majority are innocent. " This is false. 36% is not a "vast majority", nor is it even a "majority".

Far more Palestinian innocents were kiled since they are winning in the casualty rates by about three to one last time I looked. Take your sophistical comparisons somewhere else.

And who determined this? The Israelis? That fat pig Sharon?

The pair of you have not offered one single point of substance in this entire thread. In fact you have done nothing but demonstrate your ignorance of history, politics and aesthetics. An impressive threefold display of folly that would impress anyone.

	20-01-2004 11:07									#316
	Inflate your Upload Space

Stop insulting your opponents or leave the thread Agathon. Go break some china if you must abreact.

	20-01-2004 11:08									#317
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Far more Palestinian innocents were kiled since they are winning in the casualty rates by about three to one last time I looked.

Obviously, the US was the agressor of WW2, with a death toll of ~300,000, compared with Germany, obviously a victim of WW2 with a death toll of ~6 million.

	20-01-2004 11:14									#318
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Edan Obviously, the US was the agressor of WW2, with a death toll of ~300,000, compared with Germany, obviously a victim of WW2 with a death toll of ~6 million.

If only the US and germany were the only two sides.

Though if you do that, then you also mess Winston's system. And I edited my post above.

	20-01-2004 11:14									#319
	Support Apolyton

At first I couldn't figure out what the fuss could be about. A figure adrift on a lake of blood. Doesn't sound very glorious to me.

Then I read the link provided by Combat Ingrid.

For the June 12 deaths of her brother, and her cousin...

The murderer will yet pay the price and we will not be the only ones who are crying....

And many people are indeed crying: the Zer Aviv family, the Almog family, and all the relatives and friends of the dead and the wounded...

Then I thought, hmmm. Yeah, if I were from Israel, I might be a little upset about what the exhibit itself says, not just the mealy mouthed bleatings of the no-talent nitwit who put it together.

Trying to destroy the exhibit, or to damage it is not a great thing to do, but whoever the idiots were who approved it going up should be queried a little bit while deportation for the ambassador is being arranged.

	20-01-2004 11:25									#320
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by GePap If only the US and germany were the only two sides. Though if you do that, then you also mess Winston's system. And I edited my post above.

I was only trying to point out that higher death tolls (or higher civilian death tolls) don't mean squat.

Would you prefer I use the Gulf War as an example? Do you think we were the bad guys in that war?

	20-01-2004 12:32									#321
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Far more Palestinian innocents were kiled since they are winning in the casualty rates by about three to one last time I looked. Take your sophistical comparisons somewhere else. And who determined this? The Israelis? That fat pig Sharon? The pair of you have not offered one single point of substance in this entire thread. In fact you have done nothing but demonstrate your ignorance of history, politics and aesthetics. An impressive threefold display of folly that would impress anyone.

1. Sophistical?
2. This site was linked to by the Zionist extremist known as GePap. He's a puppet of the Jewish conspiracy that rules the Western World.
3. Personal attacks....

	20-01-2004 14:00									#322
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither At first I couldn't figure out what the fuss could be about. A figure adrift on a lake of blood. Doesn't sound very glorious to me. Then I read the link provided by Combat Ingrid. For the June 12 deaths of her brother, and her cousin... The murderer will yet pay the price and we will not be the only ones who are crying.... And many people are indeed crying: the Zer Aviv family, the Almog family, and all the relatives and friends of the dead and the wounded... Then I thought, hmmm. Yeah, if I were from Israel, I might be a little upset about what the exhibit itself says, not just the mealy mouthed bleatings of the no-talent nitwit who put it together. Trying to destroy the exhibit, or to damage it is not a great thing to do, but whoever the idiots were who approved it going up should be queried a little bit while deportation for the ambassador is being arranged.

	20-01-2004 14:08									#323
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Agathon, you might want to do some soul searching about why you are so anti-Israel. Have you no sense of history? Don't you have a clue as to why the Jews need a homeland, a refuge on this planet where no nation has for long allowed them to live in peace.

They were permitted to settle in their former homeland by the Turkish Empire and then by the British Mandate. The people who were there in 1948, were there legally.

They were permitted to form their own state by the UN because the Arabs had grown increasingly beligerent during the Mandate, and the Brits no longer wanted to protect them. It is that simple.

	20-01-2004 14:44									#324
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

what would you say if the spanish reclaimed florida based on historical territorial rights ?

it think it would sound like ****thehelloff

The spanish occupied your country only 400 years ago.

Now comes along a committee of jews looking to reclaim their homelands from which they were driven almost 2000 years ago. So far i have no problem with this. Everybody has a right to have a piece of land to call their home. But their home, not their own, because it wasn't theirs to begin with.

The obvious answer of the arab who was living in these lands : ****thehelloff

So 50 years ago, these people lost their lands and got their butt kicked trying to reclaim it. This is still in terms of grandfathers mind you...

Now for over thirty years the palestinians stood by the road waving with palm branches trying to get international attention for their problem, but they were left to rot. No attempt at reaching peace with them was ever undertaken. They were put in refugee camps.

So they start to fight back... in a horrifying way, targetting civilians. Indeed so much very wrong, but i wonder what the difference is between loosing your child to a suicide bomber or loosing your child to a helicopter missile...

So instead of being anti-israel here (like some people like to call everyone who doesn't blindly supports the actions of the governement of israel, right ned ?), some of us like to see the broader picture. But that makes us all anti-semites right.

Now, am i going to get banned too for going against the predominantly right thoughts here ?

	20-01-2004 14:52									#325
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Ned Agathon, you might want to do some soul searching about why you are so anti-Israel.

Anti-Israel is not the same as Anti-Jews...

quote: Originally posted by Ned Have you no sense of history? Don't you have a clue as to why the Jews need a homeland, a refuge on this planet where no nation has for long allowed them to live in peace.

Think about those poor Babaylonians!

quote: Originally posted by Ned They were permitted to form their own state by the UN because the Arabs had grown increasingly beligerent during the Mandate, and the Brits no longer wanted to protect them. It is that simple.

The Zionists used terrorism to establish their own country, plain and simple.

	20-01-2004 19:42									#326
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Edan I was only trying to point out that higher death tolls (or higher civilian death tolls) don't mean squat. Would you prefer I use the Gulf War as an example? Do you think we were the bad guys in that war?

Gah! Read what I say, not what you think i said. If you do so, you sometimes even make a valid point yourself.

I agree with you that the fact that more dead does not point to whom is the aggressor- but Winston's idea that percentages matter is also false, as your little "USA vs. Nazi Germany" points out as well, no?

	20-01-2004 20:14									#327
	Got spare money?

Art provokes reactions.

Art with a political theme is supposed to provoke a political reaction. This piece seems to have worked quite well.

	20-01-2004 20:21									#328
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Art provokes reactions. Art with a political theme is supposed to provoke a political reaction. This piece seems to have worked quite well.

The issue is: wrong type of reaction, especially by a diplomat.

	20-01-2004 20:34									#329
	Support Apolyton

In some ways the actions can be interpreted as an addendum to the work. This isnt a national treasure, it's political art. If this hadnt happened, it would have slipped into obscurity.

	20-01-2004 21:28									#330
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by dannubis So 50 years ago, these people lost their lands and got their butt kicked trying to reclaim it. This is still in terms of grandfathers mind you...

Another version of the Jews stole the land.

And, yes, Dannubis, the sum total of your post is very close to what you say it is.