23-02-2004 04:26									#91
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I sure had the best start, but still have to few MP games on my neck. 8this was my second Civ3 MP game) I've learnt a few things this time as well.

Like you sayd I should have used the first 30 turns more effectivly, and founded at least three cities on the way down to the iron and the horse.

	23-02-2004 04:38									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon I'm not sure you'd call that game's map "good fortune" for me - I had a huge jungle east and west, plains north - and Babylon and Arabia both immediately in my face. Gram had a large area with a small bottleneck, and a huge peninsula south of him. Respectfully, the starting conditions were such that he should have triumphed - he was outplayed. In your game more aggressive early expansion to the south and sentries would've allowed you to respond more quickly to my actions and secure the resources I was working to deny you. You may have had jungle north, but you had lovely land south. There's a lot more to MP than I think is being appreciated, particularly in the tactics department - it was definitely tactics and not building that won me the game against Gramphos. My first start - the unplayable - was 10 tiles of grass (no rivers) and 5 of tundra in my immediate area at the extreme southern end of a peninsula - north was a 6 deep 3 wide marsh, with the mayan AI immediately on the other side of the marsh and no area for me to "Sneak by" in - his capital radius straddled the exit to the marsh entirely.

Yes. I am not trying to minimise the gap in MP experience. Not at all. I certainly could have done better, in many departments.

That start sounds brutal. Gramphos was good to agree to restart.

	23-02-2004 04:46									#93
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So, as of now F-P has completed 2 games with one in progress against sabrewolf.

Gramphos has completed 2 games.

sabrewolf has completed 1 game with 1 in progress against F-P.

I have completed 1 game.

Snotty is having a hard time getting his matches in, which is really too bad as he should be the odds on favorite to give F-P a run for the money given his experience. I hope we hear from him soon.

	23-02-2004 04:52									#94
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I think I made a mistake when F-P asked me a question regarding the 30 turn rule in our match.

He asked if opponents had to stay out of each others cultural territory during the 30 turns of peace. I said no, so his scouts proceded to park themselves on hills inside my borders. I think this was a mistake (which I don't mind since I was the one effected).

Allowing access to the territory of the opponent while the opponent cannot attack the intruder is a bit one-sided. A scout could be parked on a resource and stay there until turn 30, or could park on a road and interfere with movement/development.

I think that the 30 turn rule should mean that units must stay out of opponents cultural territory, or at the very least not end a turn within the borders (dipping in and out with scouts for mapping would be OK).

What do you all think?

	23-02-2004 10:43									#95
	Full PM-box? Change here!

seems like a good change, however I think that we should allow one turn in and one turn to leave the territory, with the exception that once 30 turns have passed all units must leave the territory before you may declare war. That way you are able to pass a territory for exploring on the other side, and by making it so that you can't place a stack inside the borders just wait for turn 30.

	23-02-2004 14:24									#96
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i agree with the not-entering-rule.

about restarts: my start against F-P wasn't that great. end of a southern peninsula, to the left a mountain range, to the north the egyptions. river was 5-6 tiles away. iron and horses about 10-12 in another direction.
so my question: when can one ask for a restart?


maybe it would be worth it, that some neutral person generates some maps and passes on the seed.
or create an ACS MP mod with doubling (tripling) of resource rates?

concerning my match against F-P: i herewith surrender, because
a) it's only a matter of time, until he crushes me, simply because he's better
b) no iron in reach --> no UU buildable
c) river too far away for my 2-3 innermost cities --> wasted agricultural trait
d) egypt allied with him
e) to reduce playing time

so, congrats F-P

	23-02-2004 17:30									#97
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While I do agree with "Stay out of borders" I'm very much not in favor of increasing resource rates in a mod; resource denial (and choosing a UU which is not heavily resource dependent or not at all resource dependent) is part of Civ - one of the strengths of the jag, the chasqui, and the impi is that they are good at keeping other civs AWAY from needed resources. Persia, the Celts, the Iroquois *should* have to work to get their hands on what they need, because they are devastating when they do.

Respectfully, I think the problem is more that the SP community puts less immediate energy into securing resources than they should. The "resource denial" tactics I have been using are specifically tailored on that bet. To me, even the current resource amounts seem exorbitant; in a "ladder style" 1v1 with no AI's, there are only two iron and two horses on the entire map - having 4 or 5 of each due to the AI's presence seems like a wild wonderland!

Regarding restarts - I actually offered to resign the match against Gramphos rather than restart, and he graciously offered to restart; I hadn't brought that up at all. I think the option of restarting should be left to the other player in the game.

	23-02-2004 21:30									#98
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i read from MP-beta testers that they are asking to have more resources in MP whilst keeping SP resource rates down.

i know that resource denying is a method of playing. but even if you havn't got a ancient UU... iron is vital as soon as you enter the medieval ages. spearmen are outdated as soon as attack-units with 4 come out (eg. longbowmen, which don't need resources).

i just think that the map generator has too much influence if in one game you're 3 tiles away from the iron source and in the other you've got to build a 15tile mountain-hill-road to the distant unproductive city on the other side of you continent.

if the map generator would at least make starting locations fair, eg. every player gets at least three 2-food tiles (like grassland), 2 luxuries in nearer vicinity and early resources approx. the same far from everyone... then i'd like it.

sorry about my accusation about the restart.
but it's a pity you didn't play the game out. gramphos' better starting location vs. your immense MP experience... it could have turned out interesting (like playing chess against an oponent and starting without a tower ).

	23-02-2004 22:07									#99
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here the current standings:
feel free to use my html-code and "pretty it up". i didn't use any style sheets.

1st   \ 2nd	fried-psitalon	notyoueither	gramphos	sabrewolf	snotty	standings
fried-psitalon		1-0	1-0	1-0		3-0
notyoueither	0-1					0-1
gramphos	0-1			0-1		0-2
sabrewolf	0-1		1-0			1-1
snotty						0-0
	completed		pending
	in progress		no match

	23-02-2004 22:15									#100
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i'd like to play at least one game this coming weekend.
nye or snotty: are you around either saturday or sunday?
i'm not yet sure which day, but at least one of my afternoons (north american mornings) and probably an evening (NA afternoon)...

	24-02-2004 07:58									#101
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Good, sabrewolf. I would like to meet with you on whichever day you are free. The games across the pond need to take priority.

If Snotty is available, it would be prefereable for him to get his game in with F-P.

I am free both days, but tend not be available til about 9pm your time. I can try for a bit earlier.

However, if you and Snotty can get a game in in your morning, that would be great.

I will send PMs for the coming weekend in the next couple of days.

	24-02-2004 16:30									#102
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it just turned out that sunday is completely impossible.

my current availability is saturday from approx 10:00 to 16:00 UCT.
nye: if you get up fairly early, we could squeeze in the game. if not, i'll try to get a match against (and thereby my ass kicked by) snotty

	25-02-2004 07:11									#103
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well, 10am gmt is 3am my time. I am usually just going to bed by that time. I doubt I'd be up early enough.

It would be good for me to find out which dates you Euros could be available during your evenings, up to somewhere around midnight. Then I can try to coordinate with F-P his match with Snotty as a first priority, and then mine with the three of you.

Let's hope that Snotty turns up so that something can get done this weekend.

	25-02-2004 08:28									#104
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Just a question, but if I beat Snotty, does that end the tournament? Since no one else can match that win percentage - clean sweep?

	25-02-2004 12:35									#105
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There would be a play off between the two people with the best records. Looks like you are a shoe in to be one of them.

	25-02-2004 13:36									#106
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Ive had a look in the local shops and all they have is the gold edition. I begrudge forking over another £30 for a game + xp I already have and dont need, so I will be heading to a bigger town after work on friday to see if they have it seperatly.

If so, I am in this weekend. Sabrewolfs times should be ok by me, and I can play FP if he is around during my evening.

	25-02-2004 22:29									#107
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Fried got a restart?!

HAHAHHAHAHAHA!

	26-02-2004 20:29									#108
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oh my...

i can't find my c3c CD

i purpously packed it seperate from the other games when moving... now the only game i can't find is c3c ;(

if i don't find the CD by saturday, i'll have to try other measures

	27-02-2004 03:35									#109
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I might have some time to play for a few hours tomorrow evening/ early night. From simetime around 9-10 pm local time to somewhere around 1 am. Maybe that will fit nye.

As always I'm not sure if I'll be home from uni by then, but I hope not to be left after 9 pm.

	27-02-2004 09:36									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Gramphos I might have some time to play for a few hours tomorrow evening/ early night. From simetime around 9-10 pm local time to somewhere around 1 am. Maybe that will fit nye. As always I'm not sure if I'll be home from uni by then, but I hope not to be left after 9 pm.

Unfortunately, I work until 1am GMT every weekday.

We will have to get the match in on the weekend.

Sending PMs this evening. Here's hoping that we can get a couple of games in.

	27-02-2004 09:54									#111
	Got spare money?

PMs sent.

There are 6 matches left to play.

notyoueither vs Gramphos, vs sabrewolf, and vs Snotty

Snotty vs F-P, vs Gramphos, and vs sabrewolf

The games that I have to do require Europeans available in the later evening in Europe on Saturdays and Sundays. I could begin about 7pm GMT.

Snotty's matches require that he get a hold of a disk. Let's wish him good fortune in the hunt. So too for sabrewolf.

If Gramphos, sabrewolf and Snotty could let me know when they are available weekend evenings their time and have the required software installed and disks ready, We can plan when to get 4 of these last 6 games done.

Once I know about Euro availability and ability to play, I can find out from F-P when he can meet Snotty, and we can plan my games vs Euros. Snotty's games vs Gramphos and sabrewolf should be a bit easier to arrange.

Here's hoping.

	27-02-2004 12:08									#112
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This weekend is verry full. Tomorrow I'll probably not be home until around midnight, and then I will want to sleep. Aunday I have to get to bet 11 pm so no game then either.

	27-02-2004 12:53									#113
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i could possibly be available friday to saturday night after midnight. nye: if you're around, tell me so, and i'll unpack everything to find my CD.

	27-02-2004 14:30									#114
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I'll be here with bells on, if that does not discourage you.

However, closing time at the store is 2am GMT on Friday. I can get out by 1am, but I don't think that would be fair to you.

Saturday would be great.

	27-02-2004 14:43									#115
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oh, 1am GMT is 2am local time... with 3 hours of play, that'd be 5 in the morning...

i'll post again later, when i know my availabilities.

btw: nice to see that we already came further in this tournament than in the 2 previous ones.

	27-02-2004 23:22									#116
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So I ended up buying the gold edition. That brings my grand total spent on this series to £100 (a bit less than $200 USD these days). I feel a bit done being made to buy PTW again, so now I have 2 spare copys of ptw if anyone can find a home for them. I thought it would be poetic to batter my friend round the head with my new manual, but alas there was not one. I could spam his inbox with the pdf but it doesnt offer the same release.

Im in all day saturday, starting from midday. I imagine I could fit 2 games in if we play our cards right. It might be more exciting if we left my FP game to last, as if he beats me its kind of all over.

	28-02-2004 07:31									#117
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OK. Saturday Plan A:

Snotty (6pm local) meets F-P (1pm) at 6pm GMT

If Snotty and sabrewolf can meet before that and get a game in, great.

Plan B:

If for some reason F-P is unavailable, then Snotty and sabrewolf can keep going if more time is needed, and I will look for anybody who might be available when I am alive and functioning.

Please post here when you are about to begin so that we all know what is going on and nobody waits around without reason.

As I explained to Snotty in the PM, since the top two players play off at the end, it would be better if he could play F-P sooner.

	28-02-2004 10:15									#118
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F-P PMed me that he has errands to run tomorrow. He will turn up as early as he can.

In the mean time, Snotty and sabrewolf have at 'er.

We'll see what else can be done later.

	28-02-2004 15:52									#119
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still looking for the disk, and 80% of all boxes are emptied...

	28-02-2004 17:18									#120
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ok, found it!

i'll be ready for a match at about 14:00 GMT until some time this evening (not definate yet)

snotty or nye: post or PM me if something suits you. if you both can play, it's probably better if my match against nye goes first, as that would be one transatlantic match less