18-01-2004 13:33									#1
	The Leaders of Civ2- Who are They Really? Put an end to popups!

So you've played Civ2, and matched wits with these great leaders. Some are well know names, others obscure (or even in a few cases fake!). So, a quick history course for yall.

Note what kind of leaders represent civilizations that were defeated some time in history.

Also, the female rulers are an interesting and inaccurate mix.

Romans
Caeser- not sure if this refers to Julius or Augustus, both were generals, Julius founded Roman Empire while Augustus was first Emperor.
Livia- wife of Augustus, she did much ruling behind the scenes and when Augustus was out of the capital.

Babylonians
Hammurabi- King known for establishment of Hammurabi's Code, one of world's earliest known legal doctrines.
Ishtari- Babylonian goddess of war.

Germans
Frederick- King of Prussia who unified Germany in 17th century.
Maria Theresa- Empress of Austria during 17th century. Was actually Frederick's main rival.

Egyptians
Ramesses- there were actually 11 Ramesses, the most famous being the 2nd, a powerful ruler now remembered for the many monuments he had built in his honor, such as the temple at Abu Simbel, which was relocated for construction of Aswan High Dam.
Cleopatra- the last Egyptian pharoah, defeated by Romans led by Augustus.

Americans
Abe Lincoln- U.S. President during the Civil War.
Eleanor Roosevelt- wife of Franklin D. Roosevelt (US President during Depression and WWII) and social reformer.

Indians
Mohandas Gandhi- Leader of India's independence movement.
Indira Gandhi- Prime minister of India in 70's and 80's. She is not related to Mohandas, though like Mohandas, was also assassinated.

Russians
Lenin- Russian revolutionary who founded the Soviet Union.
Catherine the Great- 18th century Empress of Russia

Zulus
Shaka- 18th century warrior who unified much of southern Africa.
Shakala- This is a fictitious name

French
Louis XIV- A powerful and egotistical king from the 17th century, he built Versailles and married Maria Theresa.
Joan of Arc- 15th century French general who fought against English occupation

	18-01-2004 13:38									#2
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Aztecs
Montezuma- 15th century emperor who was defeated by Spaniards.
Nazca- not a person, but a civilization. The Nazca live in Peru the first half of the first millenium.

Chinese
Mao Tse Tung- Chinese revolutionary who founded the People's Republic of China
Wu Zhao- 7th century Empress, only official female ruler in China's history.

English
Henry VIII- 16th century king known for his many marriages and divorces
Elizabeth I- Succeeded Henry VIII, she led England in its rise to a major naval power.

Greeks
Alexander- General who conquered Persia and other parts of the Middle East.
Hippolyta- One of the queens of the Amazons, mentioned in numerous myths.

Celts
Cunobelin- A tribal leader whose story inspired Shakespeare's "Cymbeline"
Boadicea- General who organized Celts in a revolt against Roman occupation.

Mongols
Genghis Khan- General who conquered large parts of Asia.
Bortei- Wife of Genghis Khan

Japanese
Tokugawa- 17th century shogun who unified Japan
Ameterasu- Goddess of the Sun

Vikings
Canute- 11th century Viking general who expanded empire over much of Northern Europe. Later established himself as king of England
Gunnhild- wife of Eric Bloodaxe, 10th century Viking king predating Eric the Red

Spaniards
Philip II- 16th century king. His Spanish Armada was defeated by the English.
Isabella- 15th century queen. She married Ferdinand of Portugal, together they began the unification of the remainder of Spain.

Persians
Xerxes- 5th century emperor whose fleet was defeated by the Greeks at Salamis.
Scheherezade- the storyteller and narrator from The Arabian Nights.

Carthaginians
Hannibal- General who fought and was eventually defeated by the Romans.
Dido- Founder of Carthage. After the Phoenician capital of Tyre was conquered she led the Phoenicians to build a new capital at Carthage.

Sioux
Sitting Bull- General and chief who united numerous tribes against U.S. invasion in late 19th Century. Eventually defeated and imprisoned.
Sacajawea- member of Shoshone tribe. Guided Lewis and Clark in their exploration of North America in the early 19th century.

	19-01-2004 04:18									#3
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The bust is Julius Caesar's not Augustus's

--
And now that you mentioned it, I never before realized that Sacajawea was such an idiotic choice for a Civ II leader

-
And I never realized that Schnezzerade was such a bad choice for the Persians I mean, couldn't Firaxis have at least have read Gore Vidal's great novel "Creation" and stolen the name of one of the women from there!

	19-01-2004 08:38									#4
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If Civilization had anything connected to Gore Vidal in it I wouldn't play it.

Good list Smiley!

	19-01-2004 22:30									#5
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What do you have against Gore Vidal?

	19-01-2004 22:40									#6
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Perhaps Gore Vidal could be subbed for the female Persian leader. A more aggressive storyteller.

Great list, Smiley.

Monk

	20-01-2004 03:46									#7
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I don't think Joan of Arc was ever formally made a "general"; seems like she just led and they followed because the Dauphin said so... Same for Boadicea.

Mohandas Gandhi was the primary inspiration for the non-violent wing of the independence movement; there were a number of others, notably Nehru, who were more significant in terms of making it happen or leading India through the transition.

Also, Catherine the Great was really German (actually, Prussian, from an area now part of Poland). She overthrew her Russian husband Peter III and ruled much more effectively.

My guess for Scheherezade and Sacajawea was they couldn't find any other women's names, so went with "significant female" instead.

The Babylonians are the most perfectionistic and least aggressive civ; it's really ironic to find out Ishtari is the Goddess of War.

	20-01-2004 04:18									#8
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Joan of Arc was the commander of the French Army. Today, she would be a general. I am not sure what she was considered then?
I think you should consider the generals, military leaders.

	20-01-2004 07:10									#9
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quote: Perhaps Gore Vidal could be subbed for the female Persian leader. A more aggressive storyteller

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POTUS- she wasn't the commander of the ENTIRE french army

	20-01-2004 09:47									#10
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I was just pointing out there is a big difference between a trained and appointed general and a military neophyte put in charge of complex military affairs. Case in point: Hitler...

	20-01-2004 10:26									#11
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I just meant that she commanded parts of the army, not the entire thing.

	20-01-2004 13:12									#12
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Next up: analysis of just who the heck are those "great leaders" you get in Civ 3...or should I do something on the cities instead?

	20-01-2004 14:18									#13
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Are your googling skills not quite up to scratch young padawan?

I think that the ancient cities would be interesting, because there can't be that many people here who don't know where Lyon (without an S, thank you!!!), Philly, Barcelona or Cologne are, but I'd be interested in learning about Teotihuacan (usual Aztec city - sp? after it ) and the other ancient and Sioux cities.

	20-01-2004 19:48									#14
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Post the Civ3 stuff somewhere else, please; unless you can make up some Civ2 hook for the post.

Monk

	21-01-2004 02:50									#15
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Agreed.

	21-01-2004 11:26									#16
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quote: Originally posted by duke o' york Are your googling skills not quite up to scratch young padawan? I think that the ancient cities would be interesting, because there can't be that many people here who don't know where Lyon (without an S, thank you!!!), Philly, Barcelona or Cologne are, but I'd be interested in learning about Teotihuacan (usual Aztec city - sp? after it ) and the other ancient and Sioux cities.

And was there really a Zulu city called Easy Peasy?

RJM at Sleeper's

	22-01-2004 11:03									#17
	Put an end to popups!

Instead of Shakala, you could use Uhlanga, goddess of rivers.

Also Tomoe Gozen instead of Amateratsu, a real life female samurai warrior as opposed to a ficticious sun goddess.

	22-01-2004 14:09									#18
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Are you suggesting that the gracious goddess of the sun, to whom we are eternally grateful for our bountiful harvests, is fictional?

Surely a female samurai wouldn't have been a leader of any kind, if my understanding of samurai is correct. It's hardly an Elizabeth, a Maria Teresa or a Catherine.

	22-01-2004 23:54									#19
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Okay, I've 2 conflicting sources. The 1st said that Tomoe was real, the 2nd says fictional. Given the description, I'll go with the latter.

quote: The most famous women warriors are Tomoe Gozen and Hangaku Gozen (sometimes called Itagaki). Interestingly, for both of these women the naginata was not their weapon of choice. Tomoe was especially beautiful, with white skin, long hair, and charming features. She was also a remarkably strong archer, and as a swords-woman she was a warrior worth a thousand, ready to confront a demon or a god, mounted or on foot. She handled unbroken horses with superb skill; she rode unscathed down perilous descents. Whenever a battle was imminent, Yoshinaka sent her out as his first captain, equipped with strong armor, an oversized sword, and a mighty bow; and she performed more deeds of valor than any of his other warriors. Tomoe has not ever been proven to be an historical figure--and this was not for lack of trying. She has exerted a fascination upon the Japanese for hundreds of years in the startling image of a beauteous woman who was also a breaker of wild horses and the equal of any man. Tomoe is claimed by more than a few naginata traditions to be either their founder or one of their primordial teachers. There is, however, no historical justification for such claims. She lived centuries before their martial traditions were even dreamed of.

So you can keep Amaterasu. But considering the warlike nature of the Japanese in the game, Tomoe would be a better fit.

	23-01-2004 02:31									#20
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I think Duke was implying that the samurai class was not the leader class - they took orders, not gave them. Sounds like Tomoe was the type that Hollywood would love to make a movie about, though...

Last edited by Elephant on 23-01-2004 at 20:39

	23-01-2004 03:36									#21
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Thanks for the interesting info, Smiley. I never realized that some of the leaders were ficticious.

	23-01-2004 04:47									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Elephant I think Duke was implying that the samurai class was not the leader class - they took orders, not gave them. Sounds like Tomoe was the type that Hollywood would love to make a move about, though...

Samurai were both during the Tokugawa era. Samurai were the top caste of society- you had to be a samurai to be a ruler! It was before the Warring states era (Heian/Nara & Kamakura) eras that the aristocrats held power.

	23-01-2004 04:50									#23
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Not to mention the numerous other female leaders in Civ2 that weren't rulers...

	23-01-2004 08:39									#24
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It's one thing to have a fictitious character, after all, CIV isn't about reenactment, it's about rewriting history.

However, the male rulers given for the Aztecs, Persians, and Spaniards are all rulers who were on the losing end of major battles. Louis XIV and Henry VIII are hardly the greatest of France and England either. It would be like having Richard Nixon as the American leader.

	23-01-2004 20:04									#25
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I think that the major qualification might have been expected fame to the potential purchaser.

	23-01-2004 22:41									#26
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I remember that Civ I had Stalin instead of Lenin, and Napoleon instead of Louis XIV. I'm not sure if there were other differences in leaders, but it does bring back memories

	24-01-2004 11:06									#27
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Civ1:

Frederick was the German leader. Other than that, CtG has the differences accounted for.


Civ3 has a couple of interesting cities: The last of the default Greek cities is Apolyton. There is also a Mingapulco, not sure where it shows up.

	05-02-2004 00:57									#28
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Nice thread, Smiley!

As for Frederick of the Germans I would also sympathize with Frederick II of Prussia (Frederick the Great), who marked with his 48 year reign from 1740 to 1788 the rise of the young and almost unknown Kingdom of Prussia to a European power. In 1871 Prussia achieved finally the vision of Frederick to unify Germany (under William I with Bismack being the political head behind this).

But the picture on the diplomatic screen is medieval and probably shows Frederick I (Frederick Barbarossa), King of Germany and Holy Roman Emperor in the 12th century.

Zenon

	15-02-2004 03:39									#29
	Re: The Leaders of Civ2- Who are They Really? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Smiley Germans Frederick- King of Prussia who unified Germany in 17th century. Maria Theresa- Empress of Austria during 17th century. Was actually Frederick's main rival. French Louis XIV- A powerful and egotistical king from the 17th century, he built Versailles and married Maria Theresa. English Elizabeth I- Succeeded Henry VIII, she led England in its rise to a major naval power. Greeks Alexander- General who conquered Persia and other parts of the Middle East. Celts Boadicea- General who organized Celts in a revolt against Roman occupation. Vikings Canute- 11th century Viking general who expanded empire over much of Northern Europe. Later established himself as king of England Spaniards Isabella- 15th century queen. She married Ferdinand of Portugal, together they began the unification of the remainder of Spain.

Well, from the top- Bismarck unified Germany in 1871- Frederick the Great expanded Prussia's territory in the 18th Century, but didn't unify Germany.

Maria Theresa of the Holy Roman Empire fought against Frederick after he revealed his territorial ambitions by seizing Silesia.

Louis XIV married Maria Teresa of Spain, but married again to Madame de Maintenon upon the death of his first wife.

Elizabeth I of England succeeded her half sister Mary I to the throne.

Elizabeth's half brother, Edward VI succeeded their father Henry VIII to the throne.

Alexander succeeded his father Philip to throne of Macedonia, and conquered not only the Middle East but the Near East, Greece, Egypt in Africa, parts of Central Asia and India.

Boadicea/Boudicca was queen of the Celtic Iceni located in modern day East Anglia.

King Canute/Knut/Knud was king of Norway and Denmark before becoming King of England too.

Isabella of Castile married Ferdinand of Aragon.

	15-02-2004 22:52									#30
	Re: Re: The Leaders of Civ2- Who are They Really? Got spare money?

quote: I remember that Civ I had Stalin instead of Lenin, and Napoleon instead of Louis XIV. I'm not sure if there were other differences in leaders, but it does bring back memories

Civ1 was great in "view city" and not much more...

quote: King Canute/Knut/Knud was king of Norway and Denmark before becoming King of England too.

More like Denmark (and Norway). He was Danish and called Knut the Mighty. I think Knud is the modern day Danish form? Knut is a Norwegian name.

Give a rundown on the Historians as well!