20-01-2004 18:36									#91
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon That's a rather impressive resume. Sufficiently qualified to design and engineer all of the above using 1860's technology would be an astounding feat indeed. Even today there wouldn't be anybody else in the world even remotely capable of such.

Where was it said that I couldn't bring a few books along on my trip back in time?

	20-01-2004 18:38									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Verto I'm sure we've got some B-2s stashed away somewhere. And the battleship Texas, which you only think is a memorial. Behold, THE NEW WORLD ORDER: The Second Texas Republic!

Doesn't this combined area contain a Hispanic majority? That's right big of you to return to the Spanish speaking peoples of the Americas what was rightfully theirs! You Texas folks are just all heart!

	20-01-2004 18:44									#93
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO The war was not about the moral right to slavery. It contained the elements of being about a State's right to determine the issue. I would fight today for the South for just that reason. The right to determine our own fate within the bounds of the constitution (strict constructionist view). To say that this makes me racist is just crap.

I've posted a link to a website that has copies of the speeches made before the varios southern state legislatures by prominent proponents of secession many times before so I'm not going to bother with it again. You can look JF Epperson's site up yourself. Suffice it to say that the bulk of the arguements for seccesion advocate the protection of slavery as a property right.

If your going to argue this line try this: for a minute imagine that the conflict were over a state's right to allow the sexual exploitation of children. See how that fits you.

	20-01-2004 19:45									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove I've posted a link to a website that has copies of the speeches made before the varios southern state legislatures by prominent proponents of secession many times before so I'm not going to bother with it again. You can look JF Epperson's site up yourself. Suffice it to say that the bulk of the arguements for seccesion advocate the protection of slavery as a property right. If your going to argue this line try this: for a minute imagine that the conflict were over a state's right to allow the sexual exploitation of children. See how that fits you.

Neithier slavery nor sexual exploitation in any form fits me at all. The rights of the states were guaranteed by the constitution and the federal government broke faith with that. Slavery was the issue of the moment. Let me say unequivocally that I do not support slavery in any way shape or form. I do, however fully support the State's right to determine issues. The real question is at what level of government do you let the people decide their own fate. Currently we set that at a national level. My belief is simply that it should be closer to the voice of the people and be at the state level.

	20-01-2004 20:11									#95
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I would find it to be immoral and repugnant to support any states' rights stance that would advance anything inhumanly immoral.

	20-01-2004 20:32									#96
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I would find it to be immoral and repugnant to support any states' rights stance that would advance anything inhumanly immoral.

	20-01-2004 20:33									#97
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That was funny because . . . . . . .???

	20-01-2004 20:42									#98
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quote: Originally posted by TCO I gotta deal with these yahoos having confederate flag protests at work and putting flowers on Jeff Davis's grave. They are a buncha living in the past, losers. Sterilize them.

	20-01-2004 20:44									#99
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun AS -- have you reconciled with Chegitz?

It's not gonna happen. That comment of his was beyond the pale.

	20-01-2004 20:48									#100
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I see -- it was a cruel, tasteless joke, so I guess I understand.

	20-01-2004 21:07									#101
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The US government supporte slavery for quite ahile, as well as second class citizenship for woman, etc. etc. Just becasue the States made the wrong decision doesn't mean the system was wrong. I can't think of any modern state that hasn't made decisions of the same bad taste in their existance.

Out of curiosity Mr. Fun, bieng that slavery was quickly becoming economically unprofitable to the poor whites, if there was no Civil War how long do you think it would have lasted?

	20-01-2004 21:34									#102
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"We are a band of brothers, native to the soil,
fighting for our liberty with treasure, blood and toil.
And when our rights were threatened, the cry rose near and far,
to hoist on high the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

Hurrah, hurrah,
for southern rights hoorah,
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

As long as the Union was faithful to her trust,
like friends and brethren, kind were we, and just.
But now, when Northern treachery attempts our rights to mar,
we hoist on high the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

Hurrah, hurrah,
for southern rights hoorah,
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

First gallant South Carolina nobly made the stand,
then came Alabama and took her by the hand.
Next, quickly Mississippi, Georgia, and Florida,
all raised on high the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

Hurrah, hurrah,
for southern rights hoorah,
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

Ye men of valor gather round the banner of the right,
Texas and fair Louisiana join us in the fight.
Davis, our loved President, and Stephens statesmen are.
Now rally round the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

Hurrah, hurrah,
for southern rights hoorah,
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

Now here's to brave Virginia, the Old Dominion State,
with the young Confederacy at last has linked her fate.
Impelled by her example, now other states prepar'
to hoist high the bonny blue flag that bears a single star.

Hurrah, hurrah,
for southern rights hoorah,
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

Then here's to our Confederacy, strong we are and brave,
like patriots of old we'll fight, our heritage to save.
And rather than submit to shame, to die we would prefer.
So cheer for the Bonnie Blue flag that bears a single star.

Hurrah, hurrah,
for southern rights hoorah,
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

Then cheer, boys, cheer, raise a joyous shout
For Arkansas and North Carolina now have both gone out;
And let another rousing cheer for Tennessee be given
The single star of the Bonnie Blue Flag has grown to be eleven!

Hurrah, hurrah,
for southern rights hoorah,
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star."

Does this clarify my position?

	20-01-2004 21:38									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Inbreeding would save a lot of money on weddings....

Should I tell Nat your intentions now?

	20-01-2004 21:42									#104
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I would find it to be immoral and repugnant to support any states' rights stance that would advance anything inhumanly immoral.

So how was the unemployment and economic displacement of several millions of people to be handled by that glorious, generous Federal government of the time? By Lincoln's idea of invading Granada (modern Nicragua) to create a state to which former slaves could be transported?

Show me any human, moral stance by the antebellum Federal government regarding the issue.

	20-01-2004 21:44									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Marry me Albert Speer!!

First the incest comment and now this! Someone's got marriage on the mind

	20-01-2004 21:45									#106
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quote: Should I tell Nat your intentions now?

*Whaleboy strikes down Drogue with great vengeance and furious anger*

	20-01-2004 21:48									#107
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Any reference to Pulp Fiction can't be bad!

	20-01-2004 21:48									#108
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I never thought I'd live to see the day, but am I ever happy you showed up to help out with these blue-bellies, MtG.

	20-01-2004 21:53									#109
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quote: First the incest comment and now this! Someone's got marriage on the mind

*Jaw hits floor*.

I am shocked and appalled that you could ever accuse me of such a thing. We both know that I'm polyamourous . *Whaleboy dreams of better days, when, among other things, he did not annotate himself*

quote: Any reference to Pulp Fiction can't be bad!

William, never before have I agreed with you so strongly

	20-01-2004 21:53									#110
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat So how was the unemployment and economic displacement of several millions of people to be handled by that glorious, generous Federal government of the time? By Lincoln's idea of invading Granada (modern Nicragua) to create a state to which former slaves could be transported? Show me any human, moral stance by the antebellum Federal government regarding the issue.

How presumptuous of you to think that I worship the federal government as being flawless in the past or present just because I have pointed out that states' rights has historically been weak as a principle simply because advocates of any issue have gone to hypocritical lengths in favoring stronger federal government OR stronger states' rights -- whichever one happens to advance their position.

In past threads about the Civil War, I have pointed out the hypocrisies of the federal government, and in our first class last week of our Civil War seminar, I was the first one to bring up for discussion how Northern leaders were fine with bring equal rights for blacks during Reconstruction, but not to women, Chinese immigrants, or poor laborers.

	20-01-2004 21:54									#111
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Southerners: Would it be fair to say that the North's stance on slavery was a mere pretense?

	20-01-2004 21:56									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos The US government supporte slavery for quite ahile, as well as second class citizenship for woman, etc. etc. Just becasue the States made the wrong decision doesn't mean the system was wrong. I can't think of any modern state that hasn't made decisions of the same bad taste in their existance. Out of curiosity Mr. Fun, bieng that slavery was quickly becoming economically unprofitable to the poor whites, if there was no Civil War how long do you think it would have lasted?

Yes -- and Northern textile industry was intimately tied with Southern slavery in antebellum America.

See my posted response to MTG -- the Northern states had their own hypocrisies to match the states' rights advocates of the Southern states.

	20-01-2004 21:57									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy *Jaw hits floor*. I am shocked and appalled that you could ever accuse me of such a thing. We both know that I'm polyamourous . *Whaleboy dreams of better days, when, among other things, he did not annotate himself*

I'll just stick to being amorous

	20-01-2004 21:58									#114
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Bingo, Whaleboy. Without question.

	20-01-2004 21:58									#115
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And a better speller no doubt . Such promise for my intended career...

	20-01-2004 22:00									#116
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Sloww: Assuming us to be correct, I must say that I support the South in that case, and see the actions of the Union as an aggressive invasion. World domination aside, I really do admire Texas .

	20-01-2004 22:02									#117
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Sure I might support states rights, but whether the North cared about slavery or not they managed to stop it. That action alone, whether intended or not, would lead me to fight for the North, if anyone.

	20-01-2004 22:09									#118
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Drogue: Relativism causes me to not give a ****

A bad joke as we both know

	20-01-2004 22:15									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Behold, THE NEW WORLD ORDER: The Second Texas Republic!

You need to redraw the map to include ALL of Oklahoma because we'll be fighting with you from the get go. And you need us to help offset the Hispanic majority.

But the food! Mexican, Tex-Mex, and white southern gravy over fried anything. Mmmmmmmmmm

	20-01-2004 22:15									#120
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun A bunch of drivel...

Nice speech, honey, but how about instead of just whining about one thing or another, you come up with a viable alternative policy, that would fit with the majority view of the Yankees in their Federal and state governments?

The only "hypocrisy" you've ever cited regarding the south and State's Rights has been the Fugitive Slave Act, but that was a constitutionally mandated obligation of the Federal government to enforce the Full Faith and Credit clause, which was in the original body of the Constitution and has never been amended. The southern states took their sovereignty seriously.