18-01-2004 23:08									#1
	Poll: Accept Put Pact? Suffering from ads?

I think we should NOT accept the Pact THIS TURN, but rather NEXT TURN.

It now aparent that the Hive is building up in preperation to build a Secret Project and our relations with them are growing weaker. A Pact with Uni (whom they consider an enemy) would give them dipolomatic cover to conduct trades with PEACE and potentialy steal the PEG from us.

I think our best bet is too accelerate our build plan for the PEG (I belive we can move up to aquiring in 56) and stall the Hive as much as possible in its dealings with PEACE to aquire the nessary tec. The slower they are at doing this the better shot we have of getting the progject for ourselves.

Also note that we have NOT prepared the public statment we had planned, inwhich we would formaly declare our stance of peacfull nutrality and disire forPacting with the 3 remaining factions. By making this proclamation and sending offers to Drones and Uni we were hoping to conseal the depth of our secret aliance with Uni untill such time as we were taking the MMI projects. Pacting with Uni too early would compromise us and likly result in an acceleration of the Hives build plans possibly beating us.

If Archaic is willing the hold his Pact offer another turn then by all means delay it so as not to tip our hand.

I asumed Maniac and Drogue will have some response to this so please let them post their arguments before voting.

	18-01-2004 23:32									#2
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I wished you had posted your objections earlier in the PUT exchanges thread. Then I could have asked Archaic about it, and he could have offered SotHB without a pact. Archaic seemed to be very looking forward to a pact, so it would probably seriously damage relations if we told him now, when he has already pre-accepted a pact, that we wanted to wait a little longer. I wouldn't want to jeopardize our pact and also us getting SotHB because of this.
I made a deal with Archaic, and no one objected when it still was possible, so IMHO it's now too late to change our mind.

quote: Also note that we have NOT prepared the public statment we had planned, inwhich we would formaly declare our stance of peacfull nutrality and disire forPacting with the 3 remaining factions.

The plan to make such a public statement has been thought of MY 2150 IIRC. It still hasn't been done... So I assume such a statement will never get written. I wish I had the time to write it, but I don't have that time at the moment. And I don't want to delay the pact with PUT indefinitely because no one else is writing the statement either.

	19-01-2004 00:56									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

It should be written and released with the turn tonight. I had to wait due to family reasons, but if it's posted tonight, then we can have it done fine

	19-01-2004 03:15									#4
	Put an end to popups!

i am still for a pact with the UNI...after reading everybodies statements...and i have nothing to add

	19-01-2004 07:18									#5
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I would be for waiting, but Maniac's comments worry me a little. We don't want to piss Archaic off. Is there no chance that he can be contacted soon about this? If we didn't get the PEG, we would have to settle for the CDF, or wait until we had access to the CF and/or the CBA. Personally I think ensuring the Hive don't get the PEG is a priority, and getting it ourselves is preferable.

	19-01-2004 14:34									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Personally I think the extra techs from trading the PEG is worth more, but I guess I'm alone in that. IMHO, all that would happen is we get the CBA instead of the PEG, and gain an extra couple of techs. That's a good deal IMHO.

	19-01-2004 17:24									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Drogue IMHO, all that would happen is we get the CBA instead of the PEG

Why not try to get both?

	19-01-2004 19:59									#8
	Tired of ads?

We could try that, but IMHO we won't manage it, and the lack of crawlers from trying to do it may hit us.

Even if we could get both, I don't think all the mins to build it, plus two techs, is worth it. Especially when there are many decent SPs we could get (CBA, CDF, CF especially).

	19-01-2004 20:25									#9
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Drogue We could try that, but IMHO we won't manage it, and the lack of crawlers from trying to do it may hit us.

It will still take several years to get to MMI. More then enough time to build a few crawlers and save 330 credits again, especially if we switch to FM in a few years.

quote: Even if we could get both, I don't think all the mins to build it, plus two techs, is worth it. Especially when there are many decent SPs we could get (CBA, CDF, CF especially).

First off, I guess you know my opinion the difference would be only one tech. Secondly, have you read the quoted post below in the Drone dip exchanges thread? We'll actually be saving lots of minerals by building the PEG.

quote: If we capture all possible PEACE bases, we will have a faction with 20 bases. If we would have to build energy banks in all of those, it would cost 20*80=1600 minerals, and cost us 20 credits maintenance per year. So with building the PEG for 300 minerals, we're saving 1300 minerals and 20 credits per year. That's certainly worth one tech less IMO.

	19-01-2004 20:39									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Maniac It will still take several years to get to MMI. More then enough time to build a few crawlers and save 330 credits again, especially if we switch to FM in a few years.

But will it take the Drones/Hive several years? 3 or 4 maybe, IMHO.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac First off, I guess you know my opinion the difference would be only one tech.

But I think it's 3, so 2 would be the midpoint. IMHO, the Drones would trade if they knew they could sell it to the Hive. The Hive have already offered 2 techs. IMHO the Drones would not trade for it without the PEG, and the Hive would trade with PEACE. Hence we lose three.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Secondly, have you read the quoted post below in the Drone dip exchanges thread? We'll actually be saving lots of minerals by building the PEG.

I have. That's presuming we build Energy Banks in each base. I almost never build them, as they're a waste of time, and bring in little energy, IMHO. Do a comparison with how much ec we get with PEG, and how much without, and compare that.

	19-01-2004 20:52									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Drogue But will it take the Drones/Hive several years? 3 or 4 maybe, IMHO.

The Hive and Drones still need to research SotHB, Neural and MMI. We and PUT only need DAP and MMI before we can build the CBA.

quote: I have. That's presuming we build Energy Banks in each base. I almost never build them, as they're a waste of time, and bring in little energy, IMHO.

They give +50% credit production.

	19-01-2004 20:56									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Yes they do. But that isn't much, since we don't produce that much ec. +50% credits when most of our bases produce only 2 or 3 credits is hardly worth it, especially when they cost ec each year.

And the Drones will steal another tech next year, IMHO, and if they steal Neural, they can research MMI, can they not? I doubt it will take long

	19-01-2004 21:21									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Drogue Yes they do. But that isn't much, since we don't produce that much ec. +50% credits when most of our bases produce only 2 or 3 credits is hardly worth it, especially when they cost ec each year.

When we go FM, we will produce much more credits. And if we set our energy allocation to 80% once in a while, the difference can run up to 100 credits extra. This difference will only increase as our economy expands.
Also, if we build the PEG, those energy banks won't cost a thing for maintenance.

quote: And the Drones will steal another tech next year, IMHO,

Why do you think that? Has HongHu told you anything we should know??

	19-01-2004 21:43									#14
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Maniac When we go FM, we will produce much more credits. And if we set our energy allocation to 80% once in a while, the difference can run up to 100 credits extra. This difference will only increase as our economy expands.

Why would we do that? IMHO, at FM, more psych is needed, and usually labs is put higher. But that may just be me.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Also, if we build the PEG, those energy banks won't cost a thing for maintenance.

That is true.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Why do you think that? Has HongHu told you anything we should know??

No, it just seems sensible. They wouldn't go for vendetta unless they had something lined up. They said before they intend to probe rape. My guess is that they'll do about one per turn, maybe one every two turns.

	19-01-2004 21:45									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

do they already have an vendetta?

	19-01-2004 21:50									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yes. They stole tech last turn, IIRC.

	19-01-2004 21:59									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Drogue Why would we do that? IMHO, at FM, more psych is needed, and usually labs is put higher. But that may just be me.

If we go 80% economy and 20% psych under FM, we'll get lots credits to hurry facilities and try to decrease our backwardness compared to other factions. Plan of Impaler.

quote: No, it just seems sensible. They wouldn't go for vendetta unless they had something lined up. They said before they intend to probe rape. My guess is that they'll do about one per turn, maybe one every two turns.

Seems likely indeed. I only wished Archaic realized the seriousness of this threat.

	20-01-2004 13:59									#18
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Drogue Personally I think the extra techs from trading the PEG is worth more, but I guess I'm alone in that. IMHO, all that would happen is we get the CBA instead of the PEG, and gain an extra couple of techs. That's a good deal IMHO.

EDIT: Questions answered when I read the Hive proposal thread!

We are discussing whether to effectively give up the PEG for a few techs. We need a SP and we will get one, the issue is whether the PEG is best, or whether we should hope to get the CBA, if all goes well for us in the next few turns. Also remember that we should not just weigh up the potential gains from having the PEG, but also the potential gains of the Hive or Drones if THEY get the PEG. Can someone look at the infiltration data and find out how much they would be gaining from the PEG?

In the absence of this data, my feeling is that we should just concentrate on the PEG now, and worry about the CBA or something else when we are all closer to being able to build it.

	20-01-2004 15:31									#19
	Increase Your PM Length

MWIA: IMHO the 'few techs' is worth more than the PEG. As for the use of the Hive/Drones, it is large. But I'd rather they had than than the CBA.

The issue is whether the PEG is better than another SP plus the extra techs (somewhere betwen 1 and 3) we will get. IMHO I'd choose the other SP and the techs.

	21-01-2004 01:34									#20
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Our building or not building of the PEG will have almost no effect on the aquisition of MMI based projects.

Obtaining MMI projects will depend most on who gets the tecs first. It will be a race between the reserchers and the Builders to aquire the nessary tecs and who ever dose that first will get the projects easily.

By expending 330 Credits and 3 Crawlers we get an excelent and extreamly valuable project that will work wonderfully with our FreeMarket economy to produce huge sums of Credits. It wont slow down our tec progression and denies the Hive a Project which could patch up their one major weakness of poor Credit Production.

Further more we can trade with Uni for ALL the important restricion lifting tecs that we will need, why trade with the Hive which is stronger and more likly to be a future enemy then with Uni who would be more submissive towards us, unlikly to back stab us and more easily back stabed at some later date. Trading with the Hive just makes them that much stronger.

	21-01-2004 01:44									#21
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

If a junior has a vote for this:
I would go for PEG as well.

It would, among the other reasons brought up, instantly raise research rate as well, so in the long run techs will be invented sooner.

	21-01-2004 01:57									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yes everyone gets a vote, but I must apologize as we kind of drifted off topic, the topic here should have been the Uni Pact and if we accept it (it comes with SotHB).

Their is another poll for trading of the PEG which seems to be a hot topic.

	21-01-2004 02:05									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ah hell, wrong thread. Well, I only red the last 2 days.

Ah, the trading hasn't decided yet? Ok, I read it again then.