19-01-2004 09:36									#1
	Conquered Cities Full PM-box? Change here!

This may have been brought up before but Ive never seen it. Whenever i conquer an enemy city and begin to annex it into my ever expanding nations (annex being build in it) i notice that the AI never really builds improvements.....why not?

	19-01-2004 09:57									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Welcome Debauch!!

Do you mean that after you have captured a city from the AI, that there does not seem to be much in the way of improvements??

If so, this is because a big chunk of the existing improvements do not survive the change of ownership.

If you have a game that you have been playing into the late ad years then you can do a test:
--open the cheat mode and activate reveal map
--check some of the AI cities and note the many improvements
--cheat mode>change money to give yourself, say, 20000g
--right click a tile beside a city and cheat>create unit>diplomat
--buy the city
--now look at the reduced list of improvements
--rinse and repeat

If you mean something else, please disregard the above.

Monk

	19-01-2004 10:24									#3
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thanks thats exactly what i meant. so realistically speaking during the assaults from my marine into the harbors of these cities and the continuous mortar rounds they are theoretically speaking firing into the heart of the city the improvments are destroyed. i like to believe my marines act like marines and use weapons. i like to think civ out realistically. thank you

	19-01-2004 15:02									#4
	Increase Your PM Length

Well, yes. But the same thing happens if you bribe a city. If you want to look at that realistically, then maybe you've funded an underground movment to the extent that they have been able to topple the governors and that the improvements were casualties in this power struggle.
Unfortunately, the happiness improvements almost always get destroyed. I can't remember why this is, but I'm sure that the answer will lie in the Great Library in the Civ 2 Strategy forum.

	19-01-2004 15:18									#5
	Increase the size of your Attachments

IIRC each AI civ has a prescribed build order and on capture the first, third, fifth etc improvement go the way of all flesh - it is something akin to this anyway...

Stu

	19-01-2004 20:01									#6
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Iirc, there was some sort of look into this. I think that a number of improvements seem to 'just get blown away' (I can't recall ever capturing a CH, for example). It also seems that about 1/3 will disappear with a bribe and 2/3 with a hostile takeover.

But the post I'm thinking of indicated two "types" (call it column A & B) and either all of column A would be destroyed or all of column B.

In any case, bribes (done well) ususally seem to be the way to go in most cases.

	19-01-2004 20:16									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Bribery usually yields more improvements left over. I've bought cities and on occasion gotten a temple or cathedral with them. I've never gotten one nor the other thru military assault.

	19-01-2004 20:38									#8
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Temples and Cathedrals always get wiped, except for the 'double bribe, does not cause incident' case.

This has all been tested, and IIRC, duke is on the right track (column A or column B). This is especially noticable in the end game where you are bribing large AI cities. In some cases, you will get factory and offshore platform and SDI (column B)and in others, with the same begining improvements, these get destroyed.

Someone (SlowThinker) will remember the link.

Monk

	19-01-2004 20:49									#9
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I don't want to take the credit for Old n Slow's knowledge here Monk. He proposed the column A and B idea, which I remember from discussion of this issue with starlifter some years ago at CFC. He mentioned it first, and deserves the massive amount of plaudits due to him.

	19-01-2004 20:59									#10
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by duke o' york Unfortunately, the happiness improvements almost always get destroyed.

I was thinking of this sentence and then slipped into the next thought w/o putting the words on the screen. Senior moment. Sorry.

Monk

	19-01-2004 23:16									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk ... Senior moment... Monk

No problem. Every now & then I feel somewhat the same.

	20-01-2004 01:32									#12
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It's covered in Info: Diplomats and Info: Combat (not on the first page).

	20-01-2004 02:28									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

Thank you ST.

Here is a snip from his Post 62 of Info: Combat...

quote: City improvements are divided into three groups: Group A: Temple, Courthouse, Cathedral, Hydro Plant. Group B: Barracks, Library, City Walls, Bank, University, Colosseum, Manufacturing Plant, Recycling Center, Stock Exchange, Supermarket, Research Lab, Coastal Fortress, Harbor, Airport, Port Facility. Group C: Granary, MarketPlace, Aqueduct, Mass Transit, Factory, SDI Defense, Power Plant, Nuclear Plant, Sewer System, Superhighways, SAM Missile Battery, Solar Plant, Offshore Platform, Police Station. (It looks that items in group A are choosed firmly and group B and C holds remaining improvement from even resp. odd lines of rules.txt) Subverting a city preserves all improvements. Inciting a revolt causes a disappearance of group A. Capturing by force causes a disappearance of group A and just one of group B or C (there is a 50% chance for a group to be selected)

quote: Hope this helps. quote: Sorry I do not know how to have the site quote from one thread to be posted in another, so I had to cut and paste. Maybe someone can fill me in on that procedure. Thanks, guys; I think I understand, now

Monk

	20-01-2004 04:05									#14
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IFAIK, you could have just enclosed your cut and paste between [ QUOTE ] and [ / QUOTE ] (without the spaces between)

	20-01-2004 12:07									#15
	Remove this text

... and [ q ] & [ / q ] work as well

quote: This allows quote: quotes within quotes

... tis easy

	20-01-2004 20:19									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits ... and [ q ] & [ / q ] work as well quote: This allowsquotes ... tis easy

Thanks Stu and Sparrowhawk. Hope my scissors and modeling clay project above does not look too strange.

Monk

	20-01-2004 23:49									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Another thing I've noticed is that if you're fighting in the modern era and take an AI city, you can tell immediately whether or not its SDI Defense survived. If it did, the walls will be destroyed. If it didn't, the walls will remain and you'd better not keep too many offensive units near the city in the near future (the AI loves hitting its ex-cities with nukes).

Gatekeeper

	21-01-2004 00:23									#18
	Put an end to popups!

Gatekeeper,

If you take an AI city, can't you just look at the list of improvements for SDI??

Your observation is correct if the city previously had BOTH because they, walls and SDI, are from different categories. Walls is in 'B', while SDI is in'C'.

Monk

	21-01-2004 02:37									#19
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Yeah, the first couple of games I every played SP and was still learning the basics, I was a wimp and used the reload on certain things. I would occasionally save, take the city, check what improvments survived and then reload if I wan't the other set. At the time I thought it was 50% of none happiness wonders as the rules explained it. I now know the rules weren't completely right. (WHAT A SHOCK )

	21-01-2004 05:56									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Gatekeeper, If you take an AI city, can't you just look at the list of improvements for SDI?? Your observation is correct if the city previously had BOTH because they, walls and SDI, are from different categories. Walls is in 'B', while SDI is in'C'. Monk

Yes, to your first question. But you can know in the second or two before the improvements list pops up because the wall will either remain or disappear as the city changes to your color. And, yes, the observation was on the assumption that the AI city had both improvements in it.

Gatekeeper (who finds it conveniently odd that the cities w/i AI nuke range oftentimes lose their SDIs when you conquer them ... )

	28-01-2004 05:26									#21
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The AI doesn't do that in Civ3 anymore now, does it?

	28-01-2004 07:13									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley The AI doesn't do that in Civ3 anymore now, does it?

Deaf, Dumb, and Blind , the Tale of Three Monkeys, reveals that nobody here knows about Civ3.

You might ask over in that corner, though.

Monk

	28-01-2004 14:06									#23
	Remove this text

There is a Civ 3??????

Why not ask your question here?

	28-01-2004 14:45									#24
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1, um er, 2, doh ??????

	02-02-2004 03:16									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Temples and Cathedrals always get wiped, except for the 'double bribe, does not cause incident' case. This has all been tested, and IIRC, duke is on the right track (column A or column B). This is especially noticable in the end game where you are bribing large AI cities. In some cases, you will get factory and offshore platform and SDI (column B)and in others, with the same begining improvements, these get destroyed. Someone (SlowThinker) will remember the link. Monk

This is true for single player, but not for multiplayer.
Recently in my HOTW4 game I have recaptured a city I was forced to cede centuries ago as part of a peace treaty. I got all of the improvements intact. I investigated the city before the attack so I am sure about the infrastructure.

I repeat I captured it using brute force (an army of tanks) and temple and barracks were still standing. I built that temple while the city was still mine.

On the other hand, No temples or cathedrals have ever survived my attack on any city I have or haven't possessed so I think this happened only because I ceded that city.

After all, it's only logical nobody noticed it before. You won't normally cede a city unless it's a diplo game.

	02-02-2004 03:46									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Thanks for the heads up on the different MP outcome. Most of these posts deal with classic SP Civ2 with MP stuff in that area. Wouldn't be surprised if there were not a lot of differences.

Monk