19-01-2004 21:55									#1
	Hive Proposal Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Ok, we need discussion quickly, so I'm posting a poll on it.

Should we:
Trade Adapt Econ and PEG for Doc Loyal and Eco Eng, and try to trade with Drones too.
Refuse that, but agree if they offer Eco Eng and Env Econ (and try to trade with Drones too).
Refuse both, build PEG but try to trade for one tech with Hive and/or Drones for just Adapt Econ.
Refuse all trades involving Adapt Econ.
Write-in.
Cybobanana.

As some of you know, I'm all for trading. We'll simply use the crawlers to build a different SP. However if we do not, is it worth trading for one tech, or should we make them research it all themselves if they want the Ascetic Virtues. Either way, if we refuse, we run the risk of PEACE trading it.

	19-01-2004 22:01									#2
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Try to trade with Hive without PEG for one tech (and maybe Drones for one), but don't tell them that yet. Just say we agree to trade AdapEcon from MY 2155 onwards.

	19-01-2004 22:02									#3
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Pick the least you're willing to accept. You have two days.

Obviously I am for the top two (will try for Env Econ and Eco Eng, but would settle for Doc Loyal and Eco Eng). Losing the PEG will mean simply building a different SP (even CDF would be nice). Losing the trade means losing at least one, if not two of the most important techs, restriction lifting and tree farm and borehole building. IMHO Boreholes will give us more energy than the PEG, combined with the mins, the CDF for defense, and the goodwill from the trade, makes at least the second, if not the first, a good deal.

	19-01-2004 22:05									#4
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If we lose the PEG we simply build a different SP. Maybe not quite as good, but still very useful. The extra income from boreholes, combined with the production capacity to start getting closer to Hive/Drones production, would be more valube too, IMHO. The CDF would give us even more minerals than the PEG, IIRC (are perimeter defenses more than energy banks to build?). Plus the extra and better techs, and they haven't even agreed to a tech for tecfh deal (they we're very much against it before). IMHO we gain three techs (I think the Drones will trade with, and won't trade without. The Hive have said they will trade for 2 with, and said before they won't trade without) all for choosing a different SP.

	19-01-2004 22:40									#5
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well boreholes are ofcourse good....but with the PEG we get instant credits....with boreholes we need to wait until they are build to reap the benefits...need some extra time

	19-01-2004 23:45									#6
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DBTS: With PEG we need to build it. With boreholes we need to build them. Plus, since we will spend 330ec building the PEG, it will take quite a few turns before we even break even, in the meantime we will have build at least a couple of boreholes. We also get to reap the benefits of mines etc and the huge mineral bonus from boreholes. Not to mention the other tech with it, and the benefits of the CDF, meaning we are far better defended against anything, especially new bases we capture. Helps against PEACE counter attack much.

	20-01-2004 02:51									#7
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quote: The extra income from boreholes, combined with the production capacity to start getting closer to Hive/Drones production, would be more valube too, IMHO.

We'll still get EcoEng anyway, only a few years later. It's not going to make much of a difference as we don't even have enough formers right now to start such expensive terraforming projects such as boreholes.

quote: The CDF would give us even more minerals than the PEG, IIRC (are perimeter defenses more than energy banks to build?).

IIRC perimeter defences are cheaper than energy banks, but I'm not at all sure. But the PEG is certainly more profitable than the CDF: perimeter defences just exist doing nothing unless our bases are attacked, while energy banks start paying themselves back immediately.

quote: Plus, since we will spend 330ec building the PEG, it will take quite a few turns before we even break even

IIRC we're currently producing about 60 credits per year, so the PEG would result in 30 credits extra. Assuming some economic expansion, the cost will certainly be payed back in 10 years, and after that it's pure profit. I doubt you'll find any other facility or project that is more profitable right now.

quote: in the meantime we will have build at least a couple of boreholes

With only 12 formers all spread around our empire?
You also have to take into account that if you use formers to build boreholes, they won't be able to do other terraformations. In the time it takes to build one borehole (0-6-6), you can plant six forests (6-12-6).

	20-01-2004 14:12									#8
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Although the second option seems tolerable (the first is IMO a complete no-no), I am not really sure of choosing it.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac We'll still get EcoEng anyway, only a few years later. It's not going to make much of a difference as we don't even have enough formers right now to start such expensive terraforming projects such as boreholes.

I think this is a good point. On the one hand we would get the PEG (barring disasters), and delay the restriction-lifting techs by some turns. OTOH, we get the restriction techs earlier (when there is IIRC not all that much immediate benefit) and do not get the PEG at all, barring a miracle. Can we really get that much benefit from restriction-lifting techs right now?

quote: With only 12 formers all spread around our empire? You also have to take into account that if you use formers to build boreholes, they won't be able to do other terraformations. In the time it takes to build one borehole (0-6-6), you can plant six forests (6-12-6).

Well, you're ignoring the movement in between there, and the fact that it takes only one pop to work a Borehole whereas 6 pop to work 6 forests (no base of ours has that much) but the point is valid.

I do think you are dumbing down the importance of those lovely minerals from the Boreholes, Maniac, but at the same time I agree that Perimeter Defenses everywhere will not mean so much to us unless we are attacked, and in that case we would just build them in the few bases where they are needed.

Have any of these options even been discussed with the Hive yet? Are they wanting to trade along any of these lines?

Right now, however, I agree with Maniac's conclusion.

	20-01-2004 15:37									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac We'll still get EcoEng anyway, only a few years later. It's not going to make much of a difference as we don't even have enough formers right now to start such expensive terraforming projects such as boreholes.

True, but we wouldn't get the other SP. And we would have to trade/research it later, when we could trade/research for something else instead. The net gain is 1-3 techs, and changing the SP.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac IIRC perimeter defences are cheaper than energy banks, but I'm not at all sure. But the PEG is certainly more profitable than the CDF: perimeter defences just exist doing nothing unless our bases are attacked, while energy banks start paying themselves back immediately.

In terms of mins I'm sure they're not cheaper. And are you saying Energy Banks are more useful than perim defenses? IMHO, if I could build only one, it would be defenses.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac IIRC we're currently producing about 60 credits per year, so the PEG would result in 30 credits extra. Assuming some economic expansion, the cost will certainly be payed back in 10 years, and after that it's pure profit. I doubt you'll find any other facility or project that is more profitable right now.

If this game lasts 20 more years I'd be very surprised. It's of little benefit, considering the military or base facilities that 330 could build.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac With only 12 formers all spread around our empire? You also have to take into account that if you use formers to build boreholes, they won't be able to do other terraformations. In the time it takes to build one borehole (0-6-6), you can plant six forests (6-12-6).

But the 6 forests take 6 squares, and mroe importantly, 6 workers. The borehole produces loads from 1 worker. And it's quicker to build formers than SPs.

	20-01-2004 15:41									#10
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt I think this is a good point. On the one hand we would get the PEG (barring disasters), and delay the restriction-lifting techs by some turns. OTOH, we get the restriction techs earlier (when there is IIRC not all that much immediate benefit) and do not get the PEG at all, barring a miracle. Can we really get that much benefit from restriction-lifting techs right now?

No, but we'd get another SP too. And we would get more techs later. Having those techs now means we can research other things later, meaning we will always be 1-3 techs ahead of where we are now.

I am amazed that people think the PEG is worth 3 techs plus the CDF. IMHO, all we would have to do is change SP, and we gain 3 techs, putting us back at the front.

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt I do think you are dumbing down the importance of those lovely minerals from the Boreholes, Maniac, but at the same time I agree that Perimeter Defenses everywhere will not mean so much to us unless we are attacked, and in that case we would just build them in the few bases where they are needed.

But this game is very militaristic. We will be attacked, we will need defense, and we are at war at the moment. How are we going to compete, militarily, with Hive/Drones without a tech advantage (which is there's atm) or some SP advantage.

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Have any of these options even been discussed with the Hive yet? Are they wanting to trade along any of these lines?

They have offered the first, and tentatively offered the second. The others they don't like.

	21-01-2004 01:17									#11
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My position on matter is probly already know by everyone but I will reiterate.

The PEG can pay for itself VERY fast once we are in FreeMarket and if we chosse to push Econ up around 80%. Not only would we recoup the 330 Credits but we would generate a considerable supluss which when used to expand our infastructure would accelate our reserch to the point that we could easily be a tec ahead of ware we otherwise would be. Thus I consider the PEG to be worth atleast 2 tecs if not more.

The PEG could give the Hive a huge aditional advantage that frainkly I dont think we can afford to let them have.

I think the game is going to last for a LOT longer then 10 turns too, more like 50 I think.

Getting the PEG will INCRESSE our ability to get future projects not Decresse it as Drouge seems to imply, not only will we accelate reserch by infastructure improvments but we will be able to easily rush future projects once we actualy have access to them. On both accounts the PEG is preferable to getting restricion lifting tecs (which dont actualy lead to the Future projects we desire).

	21-01-2004 02:20									#12
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How likely is it that the Hive outproduces us when they have Adapt Econ?
Are they busy with a SP right now, so can they swich production?

	21-01-2004 02:34									#13
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The Hive is doing something rather Odd which frainkly I cant quite figure out.

Previously (as you can see on the last 2 present saves) they were running 2 bases full of Librarians and generating 160 reserch. They also ran 40 Econ, 10 Pych and 50 labs (due to their low efficiency). Their Credit output was a modest 30-40.

Now then have frozen all reserch, and are running 70% Econ, 30% Pych and are generating around 50 Credits (they also did not spend any credits last turn, they usaly spend ALL their credits every turn). The 2 bases that were running Librarians now have a mix of Doctors and workers and are much less productive. The Crawlers that were previously bringing food and mins to these bases are now in the field aparently doing nothing??

If they wanted to make maximum Credits then they should have made the Librarians into Tecnicians and generated considerable credits.

I suspect their planning to build the PEG by cashing large numbers of unupgraded Crawlers (as they lack SotHB and the Trance ability). They might be planning to upgrade a few to Plasma Steel (which they got by prototype trading with the Drones). I think they could hurry the project to 1 turn completion as soon as they get the tec if they were realy desperate and wanted to use 8-9 unupgraded crawlers. Otherwise they might be a turn or two slower. In any event we cant count on beating them to the project on raw build power even under our accelerated schedual which builds us the project in 2156.

	21-01-2004 02:45									#14
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Um, ok.
As mentioned in the February thread, I got empty zip folder when I download the turn, so I can't see the game yet.
As we can see their bases (Probe? Planetary Datalinks?), then we should know as well how many crawlers they have available. Any info on that?

	21-01-2004 02:47									#15
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MrWhereItsAt:

quote: Well, you're ignoring the movement in between there,

True. So probably only four or five forests could be built on the same time as a borehole. However on the other hand while a borehole is still being built, a few forests will already be planted and come in production, so that again increases the value of forests?

quote: and the fact that it takes only one pop to work a Borehole whereas 6 pop to work 6 forests (no base of ours has that much) but the point is valid.

True again. So a better comparison is 6 forests (6-12-6) against one borehole but five unterraformed tiles. Assuming rolling&moist tiles, that would be (5-11-6). Almost no difference in other words, at least if we have EnvEcon. Otherwise it would be 5-11-2 and forests can again be considered superior.

quote: I do think you are dumbing down the importance of those lovely minerals from the Boreholes

I certainly realize how great boreholes are, but as I hope to have proved above, they are not that great getting them a few years earlier to justify losing the PEG.

Drogue:

quote: True, but we wouldn't get the other SP.

Do you mean the CBA? I don't see why not. Let's assume we get MMI MY 2161. After we get the PEG MY 2156, we'll earn some 90 credits a year on 50% economy. That's more than enough to save up another 330 minerals to hurry the CBA.

quote: In terms of mins I'm sure they're not cheaper. And are you saying Energy Banks are more useful than perim defenses? IMHO, if I could build only one, it would be defenses.

Btw, may I ask, why do you assume we could get the CDF if we don't build the PEG?? The Hive would trade us Doc:Loy if we gave them AdapEcon, not IntInt. So the Hive can still research to IntInt faster than us no matter what we do and let the Drones build the SP. As far as I can see, there is therefore no chance at all we can get the CDF, no matter if we give the Hive the PEG or not.

quote: If this game lasts 20 more years I'd be very surprised. It's of little benefit, considering the military or base facilities that 330 could build.

Though I think the game lasting 50 more years as Impaler says, is a bit too optimistic, I think 20 years is somewhat a pessimistic estimate. 20 years would mean that the Hive/Drones would have to start conquering PUT this turn and conquer 1.5 bases per year to conquer us as well within a 20-year timeframe.

GeoModder:

The Hive aren't building a SP right now, but they produce about 2.5 times as many minerals as us, and they have IIRC 40 crawlers, so it wouldn't take them many turns to organize the construction of a SP.

Btw, have you already checked out our latest turn? The password is "experiment".

	21-01-2004 03:01									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac MrWhereItsAt: Btw, have you already checked out our latest turn? The password is "experiment".

First time I hear something from a password
Anyway, solved the empty zip folder problem. I got simply no extracting tool on the partition I run SMAC.
Worked ok on my other partition, so I got the midturn save now (CyCon).
Couldn't see the CyCon completed turn in the turn thread , so I just start looking in that midturn to get familiar with the game.

	21-01-2004 03:06									#17
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The only difference with the midturn and the final turn I posted in the general forum are the three little things polled here. I was too lazy to upload a new turn to our turn reports thread just for that. I could upload one if you want, but it'll have to wait until tomorrow night as I'm afraid I don't have the time now (and also on the wrong partition).

	21-01-2004 03:12									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac The only difference with the midturn and the final turn I posted in the general forum are the three little things polled here. I was too lazy to upload a new turn to our turn reports thread just for that. I could upload one if you want, but it'll have to wait until tomorrow night as I'm afraid I don't have the time now (and also on the wrong partition).

Don't bother, i'll have lots to find out anyway since I'm coming in half-game.

	21-01-2004 05:00									#19
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Ok, checked the game now.
Questions: where do you plan to build the SP? Logic Loop?
Why isn't started already, actually, or has this happened in the remainder of the turn?

I think we won't stand a change completing the PEG before the Hive when they have the chance, so I prefer not to trade Adap Econ. Unless we can come to an agreement that they won't try to build it and give them an op line to Ascetic Virtues.

	21-01-2004 05:26									#20
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Our plan is to build the PEG in Zetaris.
Next year MY 2154 we will have over 330 credits. We will use those to upgrade the three crawlers in Zetaris' vicinity to 0-3t-1, each worth nine mineral rows. In MY 2155 we'll start production on the PEG and immediately cash in the crawlers. With a little bit of hurrying, we'll then have the PEG in MY 2156 already.

The reason we haven't started it yet is because we (or at least I) want to leave the Hive in the dark as long as possible. If they realized we had plans to build the PEG by MY 2156, they'd probably try and get AdapEcon from PEACE, and try to beat us to it.

	21-01-2004 05:34									#21
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Yes, no I see the need to keep them in the dark untill 2155. Still, can't they make the PEG in one year notice?
They have a lot of crawlers concentrated on several bases.

	21-01-2004 10:41									#22
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They probably could, GeoModder, but as long as we don't give them AdapEcon before 2155, the closest they can come is:

2155: We rush the PEG and give the Hive AdapEcon
When the Hive gets the turn (AFTER us), if they rushed the PEG they would not have been first, and thus next turn...

2156: We get the PEG. If the Hive rushed it, they would, upon getting to their turn, be told it was already built and have to change to something else. Also, as there are likely no SPs that the Hive can build instead right now, this is why I think we need to make them aware of our plan to build the PEG - how screwed would they feel if they got AdapEcon, rushed the PEG, found we had snuck it out ahead of them and they are left with several hundred wasted mins with nothing equivalent to spend them on?

	21-01-2004 15:18									#23
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Seems sorted then. The PEG it is

	21-01-2004 16:01									#24
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I understand your POV, Drogue, but I really do think the PEG could be that useful, especially in helping us get the ECs for future projects as well.

Also, I would prefer to go for the project that we can get know rather than put aside the chance and hope/expect to be in a similar or better position to get a later one. The old saying about birds in the bush....

	14-06-2004 17:13									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] The Hive is doing something rather Odd which frainkly I cant quite figure out. Previously (as you can see on the last 2 present saves) they were running 2 bases full of Librarians and generating 160 reserch. They also ran 40 Econ, 10 Pych and 50 labs (due to their low efficiency). Their Credit output was a modest 30-40. Now then have frozen all reserch, and are running 70% Econ, 30% Pych and are generating around 50 Credits (they also did not spend any credits last turn, they usaly spend ALL their credits every turn). The 2 bases that were running Librarians now have a mix of Doctors and workers and are much less productive. The Crawlers that were previously bringing food and mins to these bases are now in the field aparently doing nothing?? If they wanted to make maximum Credits then they should have made the Librarians into Tecnicians and generated considerable credits. I suspect their planning to build the PEG by cashing large numbers of unupgraded Crawlers (as they lack SotHB and the Trance ability). They might be planning to upgrade a few to Plasma Steel (which they got by prototype trading with the Drones). I think they could hurry the project to 1 turn completion as soon as they get the tec if they were realy desperate and wanted to use 8-9 unupgraded crawlers. Otherwise they might be a turn or two slower. In any event we cant count on beating them to the project on raw build power even under our accelerated schedual which builds us the project in 2156.

Which turn was it? I'm guessing it was one of the really stuffed up turns.

You wondered why I kept coming back to the Hive? Turns like that were the reason.

	17-06-2004 00:19									#26
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It was 2153 or 2152 I think Kody. We were waiting for the Drones to give us SotHB. Enigma did the turn. I'm not sure why some of the crawlers were not doing their work. I vaguely remember I had some questions about his turn, but you said he has his reasons. I think I was later convinced that what he did was right too.

	17-06-2004 03:00									#27
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A lot of the time we were working on the assumption the Hive (and ALL factions) were controlling things as tightly as we did.

I guess we never really realised there could just be oddities due to different playstyles, rushed turns, or simple human error (which we Cybernetics have largely eliminated).

	17-06-2004 03:03									#28
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Oh yeah, you can be sure that there were lots of those things in the Hive.

Once we almost surpassed Miami in her own effort to become the colony pod fleet commander.

	17-06-2004 06:32									#29
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Oh that's right it was Voltaire that played that turn with a turn chat with Jamski and Micha.

I had left thinking that there was enough of a turn advantage for the Hive that the Hive would be safe from being destoried with my departure. Then I checked over the new turn and had an heart attack. You can bet your sasuage that I ran back to the Hive as quickly as possible. I never really trusted the Hive to play turns for a long time.

	18-06-2004 02:49									#30
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No that wasn't the turn Impaler was talking about I think. I checked the time it was when Enigma and I play the turns. We did the allocation change intentionally because we were waiting for Drones to give us the techs. Jamski's colony pod production campaign was around 2145, much earlier than that.