20-01-2004 15:29									#1
	The Temple of Artemis problem needs fixing Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Sorry if this has been talked about, but I have not seen much discussion about it recently.

The fact that the temples given for free are not permanent is entirely out of kilter with other improvement-bestowing wonders like Sun Tzu and the Pyramids. When the Temple of A becomes obsolete it should just stop giving temples to new cities, not destroying all previously distributed ones.

I notice this hasn't been fixed in any of the beta 'patches' but I am sincerely hoping it gets fixed in a proper patch.

	20-01-2004 15:40									#2
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I am actually a little surprised at this, as there has not been all that much debate about this here. The fact it has not changed in any of the patches would reflect this, as well as the fact that it must have been the developer's intention that the ToA be done this way. Otherwise it would be far too powerful, IMO.

	20-01-2004 16:16									#3
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Why would it be too powerful up until the point of its obsoletion? That is, why would it be too powerful as long as it stopped giving out temples after it's made obsolete? Taking the temples away makes the wonder pointless, worthless, despite the short-term gains (which aren't that brilliant to be honest!)

	20-01-2004 17:39									#4
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How is the culture generated by the given temples handled once the wonder expires?

Is it kept, or is it lost. If it is kept the only downside of the expireing wonder would be the 1000 year bonus for temples beeing delayed.

But just having an early wonder like ToA give culture in every city on a continent is very powerful. However, I think that it should be possible to build temples in the cites that are given them during the lifetime anyway to be able to keep the temple with the onld creationdate after the wonder expires.

But removing the expiration part would make any civ that gets that wonder a culture monster. Making it a lot more powerful than Pyramids or Sun Tzu

	20-01-2004 19:04									#5
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It works like any other wonder that gives out free buildings and goes obsolete.

This is working exactly as the designer intended.

The accumulated culture is kept, Gramphos.

	20-01-2004 19:45									#6
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I think it's a very useful wonder, especially for early civs on the offense or expanding like mad. Build/conquer a city... you've already got a Temple to help keep people happy AND start pushing out your borders.

I just wish I had known the Temples go away my first game before I sold off those I had built

	20-01-2004 19:54									#7
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I've never wanted this wonder in epic game play. I'm finding it most useful, however, in the Rise of Rome scenario.

-Arrian

	20-01-2004 21:37									#8
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If the temples were permanent, the ToA would be incredibly overpowered. It's fine the way it is.

The very best use you can make out if it is:

* Do NOT build the Great Library.
* Get the ToA.
* Research only towards Mil Trad, stop after that (no Education!).
* Build a lot of Cavalries, stomp over everyone weak enough, until you capture the Great Lib. If you happen to controll Sun Tzu's and the Pyramids, even better...And if you want to catch up, capture the GLib, and jump into the Modern Ages.

This is actually working, I just did it on Demigod (not that I build any of the Wonders myself...)

	20-01-2004 21:37									#9
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It hurts your culture in the long run cuz you have to rebuid all those temples once you hit Education. Luckily I was smart enough not to sell off my temples this last game, though I was tempted at first. I thought, what happens to all my double temples?

	20-01-2004 21:58									#10
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm The accumulated culture is kept, Gramphos.

Just as I thought, and then it works just as intended. However, I still think it could be good to allow construction of a temple to prepere for the time the wonder would stop working.

	20-01-2004 22:47									#11
	Re: The Temple of Artemis problem needs fixing Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by David Murray Sorry if this has been talked about, but I have not seen much discussion about it recently. The fact that the temples given for free are not permanent is entirely out of kilter with other improvement-bestowing wonders like Sun Tzu and the Pyramids. When the Temple of A becomes obsolete it should just stop giving temples to new cities, not destroying all previously distributed ones. I notice this hasn't been fixed in any of the beta 'patches' but I am sincerely hoping it gets fixed in a proper patch.

The Temple works exactly the same way as Sun Tzu and Pyramids. The only reason you don't notice it is because both of those never become obsolete.

	20-01-2004 23:06									#12
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I've never bothered to build it, but I conquered it once and discovered a slight oddity. Assuming you've built cathedrals in your cities prior to ToA going obsolete, once you hit Education you'll have cities with cathedrals but not temples. If you've also built other happiness structures (markets, Sistines) and have a couple of luxuries, you may find that you don't really need temples at all. Thus, you get the benefits of temples during the part of the game when you need them most, but ultimately save a bundle of shields and upkeep when they get replaced by other happiness builds.

Still don't care much for ToA, but it's got some utility if you play the Middle Ages right.

	21-01-2004 03:22									#13
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I thought when the Great Wall became obsolete, cities lost their walls? In that respect ToA is not different. It's handy while it lasts, but by the time it is obsolete, I've found that I don't need temples that often. Plus, by that stage of the game, I've remembered the luxury slider.

	21-01-2004 05:33									#14
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I avoid ToA like the plague. For one thing, the temples don't get double culture and when they DISAPPEAR it's a real pain.