20-01-2004 19:10									#1
	More positive signs from SE Europe. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The runner for prime minister of Greece has made a proposal to Turkey for both countries to gradually scale down on their huge military spending. The Turkish government immidiately agreed. The reasoning was simple: do we want more money to go to weapons oir go to the well being of our people?

Greece and Turkey have the highest % of military spending in Europe, much to the delight of western arms companies and their governments who lobbie for them. However it seems that time has come to wise up. The Islamist government of Turkey is actually far more democratic than any military regime. The signs are positive. The european perspective of Turkey has given a new thrust to Greek Turkish relationship.

However I have to ask my european counterparts. How honest are we vis a vis Turkey? What will be done in 2004? It seems to me we're playing Turkey for a fool. Very few people have any genuine intend to see her become an EU member. Not that the Europinization of Turkey will not be beneficial by itself. But I think that complete honesty is more dignified than what we're doing now. France and Germany dont want her in so she won't be in. At least for decades to come untill she reaches democratic and financial capabilities that for her size will make her "acceptable" to the EU. But isn't it fair to tell her so?

	20-01-2004 19:25									#2
	Re: More positive signs from SE Europe. Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 However I have to ask my european counterparts. How honest are we vis a vis Turkey?

Most interesting question. I personally think you can´t ake endless promises to Turkey, demanding that they get their problems solved, esp. in aspects of human rights without doing some concrete steps into Turkeys direction too - at a certain point the Eu has to make a clear decision.

IMO, the should be given a clear perpective to join the EU - not tomorrow or in three months, but a reasonable timeline should be possible.

	20-01-2004 19:56									#3
	Got spare money?

European politicians should be quite frank with Turkey. Most citizens of Europe don't want Turkey as a member and are initmidated by it (I am reffering to some polls I read in the papers).

However, nobody asks the citizens of Europe what they want so let's put that issue aside

What should European politicians do? They should be frank in saying to Turkey that it will not get to have the same criteria as countries in Europe proper. EU has formally insisted on a number of very strict conditions for member countries to implement, but in fact they will be allowed to rush in and everyone will just hope that EU membership will eventually fix things.

For example a lot of EU compliant legislation has been rushed in parliaments of new members in an almost automatic process. Actual implementation of these laws is far from perfect.

What should be said to Turkey is, "we turned a blind eye to some of the mess that east Europe was in, but we won't turn a blind eye on any of your faults. Due to domestic pressure, Turkey will be admitted only when it becomes holier than the pope. Sorry folks."

Personally, I would not object to see Turkey in, but only when I am convinced that they fulfill all of the criteria Croatia has to fulfill

And as to the original question, "are the Greeks being honest to Turkey?" - I say I doubt it.

	20-01-2004 19:59									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

And what the heck do you mean by "more positive signs form SE Europe"? Like there have been many positive signs lately

	20-01-2004 20:01									#5
	Increase the size of your Attachments

You still ain't getting the Elgin Marbles back though.

	20-01-2004 20:08									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The problem I see with Turkey joining the EU in the short- to mid-term is the fact that it is most likely to sacrifice further integration for expansion. This is a problem that we already see with the new eastern european members: many of them are not ready to integrate further...and Turkey is too large to be carried through with subsidies.
In the longer term, Turkey should receive the opportunity of membership if it meets the criteria necessary with human rights issues and economic development being the key.

"How honest are we vis a vis Turkey?"
We aren't very honest. One of the problems here is that the US is lobbying for Turkey's membership: if the governments were honest, they'd piss off the U.S.

Last edited by Mazarin on 20-01-2004 at 20:18

	20-01-2004 20:14									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Mazarin The problem I see with Turkey joining the EU in the short- to mid-term is the fact that it is most likely to sacrifice further integration for expansion. This is a problem that we already see with the new eastern european members: many of them are not ready to integrate further...and Turkey is too large to be carried through with subsidies. In the longer term, Turkey should receive the opportunity of membership if it meets the criteria necessary with human rights issues and economic development being the key.

I´d agree with you to a certain point, however, if you wait too long, it is very probable that this would damage the pro-euro/western side in Turkey, and strenghten fundamentalist forces, which cánnot be in european interest. Don´t underestimate the emotions in Turkey about the issue.

	20-01-2004 20:23									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by BeBro I´d agree with you to a certain point, however, if you wait too long, it is very probable that this would damage the pro-euro/western side in Turkey, and strenghten fundamentalist forces, which cánnot be in european interest. Don´t underestimate the emotions in Turkey about the issue.

I see a multi-speed integration as the way we will have to take. If we go that way, Turkey and other countries could join earlier and we don't have to **** over every detail with countries that are not ready/not willing to give up more souvereignity.

	21-01-2004 00:18									#9
	Support Apolyton

First: The dearmament is a good thing. One century-old hostility can now start to settle

The other thing is really a problem and mostly for Turkey: Turkey doesn't really belong to Europe (much less than Israel IMO) and not really to the Arab world. In the future world it cannot stand alone. I think it is better they will belong to us, even if there are still many problems to be solved. Anyone who isn't against us is for us.

	21-01-2004 01:02									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

If they can sort out the human rights bit and curb the military then there should be a clear timetable for Turkey to join the EU. The other things they will need to do can come later - that is the basis that just about everyone else got in on.

A lot will depend on how much appetite there is to expand the EU further in the Balkans and including Turkey in the mix. Sending out a strong signal that a secular islamic country is treated as a equal partner seems to be a worthwhile thing to do.

Not sure what the British Government think of this but they will probably not be very supportive until the Cyprus issue is resolved with all of Cyprus in the EU and recognition of the UK retaining its bases there.