22-01-2004 07:18									#31
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I voted maybe. I'd like to, but I may be too busy with... stuff.

	22-01-2004 07:43									#32
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Argh! To read Nathan's post or not?! Gah! Brain freeze!
This start looks so good, I'm hoping to have a go at Emperor level even if it means an early loss.
So is the spoiler-esque post just a comparison of different build-queue decisions and laborer tasks in varying orders, or something really spoily?

	22-01-2004 07:55									#33
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quote: Originally posted by ducki This start looks so good, I'm hoping to have a go at Emperor level even if it means an early loss.

If you go in on Emperor, I'll go in on it, too! Heck, screw that! Let's go in on Diety! The AI will never see what hit 'em.

quote: So is the spoiler-esque post just a comparison of different build-queue decisions and laborer tasks in varying orders, or something really spoily?

Yep, that sounds about right. I didn't notice anything that involved building choices outside of what was seen in the screenshot.

-donZappo

	22-01-2004 07:56									#34
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Sooooo torn on whether or not to read Nathan's post (as I sit here downloading 1.15 - thanks alexman!).

No, will not read. Yet. I intend to play this AU game.

-Arrian

	22-01-2004 08:03									#35
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Nathan's post is not really a "spoiler", it just compares a few opening moves to determine which is best. The only drawback to reading it is that you might just copy what he did instead of figuring this stuff out for yourself. I would take it as a good example of what could/should be going through your head as you plan your opening sequence.

I can confidently say that his analysis is far from exhaustive, and no "case" he presents is clearly superior (sure, you can get up a Granary really fast, but what if a Barb camp appears within three tiles of your capital?). I would certainly do things rather differently myself. In particular, there's one factor that you guys seem to be completely overlooking...I'll be happy to see if anyone considers it in practice.


Dominae

	22-01-2004 08:07									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae In particular, there's one factor that you guys seem to be completely overlooking...I'll be happy to see if anyone considers it in practice.

Grrrr! You just had to plant that little seed in my mind to fester there until I can figure out what this great "mystery" is!

	22-01-2004 08:08									#37
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quote: Originally posted by donZappo Grrrr! You just had to plant that little seed in my mind to fester there until I can figure out what this great "mystery" is!

Maybe there is no mystery...

	22-01-2004 08:16									#38
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Heh, I already caved and read quite a bit of it. I wanted to see what he was thinking. I figured he might try to punch out a worker first or something... sure 'nough, the first option is to do that.

I still plan to stick to my 3 warriors - worker - granary plan. I want explorers. Granted, this will mean the hut will most likely give me barbs (as I will have a military unit when it pops) but I also may meet other civs faster, and pop more huts overall (though I agree that it seems Conquests huts are vicious compared to PTW huts).

-Arrian

	22-01-2004 08:34									#39
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Don't worry Arrain the barbs will just sit on their hands.

	22-01-2004 08:37									#40
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Upon hearing that it cannot be barbs before a unit is built, I'm now planning on gambling the four worker moves to hit the hut right away, so that I don't have a 'finish Warrior -- culture expansion pops barbs' situation to deal with.

	22-01-2004 09:14									#41
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Building a worker first before starting warriors can also avoid the "finish warrior - culture expansion pops barbs" situation without wasting moves for the original worker. Of course it does have its price in other respects: the capital can't start working both high-food tiles at once as soon and it stays size 1 with low production longer.

	22-01-2004 09:34									#42
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Ah, but once it grows again multiple tiles will already be improved. I was considering my first build to be a worker even before Nathan's post. Glad to know I was on the right track.

	22-01-2004 09:49									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I can confidently say that his analysis is far from exhaustive, and no "case" he presents is clearly superior (sure, you can get up a Granary really fast, but what if a Barb camp appears within three tiles of your capital?). I would certainly do things rather differently myself. In particular, there's one factor that you guys seem to be completely overlooking...I'll be happy to see if anyone considers it in practice.

You aren't talking about the risk of having the capital destroyed by the volcano, are you? There's definitely an element of calculated risk involved in building within two tiles of a volcano, but the risk seems minimal, especially compared with the rewards. (Of course if enough people play, chances that one or another of us will get hit are a lot higher.)

I never intended my analysis to be exhaustive. My target, as usual, was to get a settler pump going as quickly as possible. If anyone can come up with an alternative that does that as well as my four finalists did - not just in terms of getting the granary built, but also in terms of having the improved production tiles to make the pump sustainable - I'd love to hear it.

The biggest thing I don't like about Arrian's approach is that because he builds his second worker so late and spends time chopping to get the needed shields, he's short on production (and roads for commerce) when the granary is complete - especially if the chop doesn't uncover a bonus grassland. That means the city can't build 4-turn settlers as quickly (except maybe with additional chops). Also, I'd have to test whether his plan is workable in terms of having Pottery researched by the time it's needed; that's a much more serious problem on a large map than on a regular one (although if Arrian plays on Monarch, the cost won't be quite as high).

On the other hand, three warriors give Arrian a major advantage in being able to explore without neglecting his defense. It's a question of priorities and trade-offs. (Of course a lot depends on what the map ends up being like. If it's archipelago-ish, there may not be anyone for the early warriors to meet or a lot of land that needs scouting. On the other hand, if we're on a big land mass with several other civs, the value of early exploring warriors is likely to be a lot greater.)

	22-01-2004 10:34									#44
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I just noticed something I'd missed: a coastal city for the Byzantines can use the Colossus as a prebuild for a granary. I'm not sure there's a good way to use that fact, but it's there.

	22-01-2004 12:19									#45
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quote: You aren't talking about the risk of having the capital destroyed by the volcano, are you? There's definitely an element of calculated risk involved in building within two tiles of a volcano, ...

Never have I seen a volcano hit other than the adjacent tile! Are you sure it can possibly flow to two-tile range??

	22-01-2004 17:10									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Never have I seen a volcano hit other than the adjacent tile! Are you sure it can possibly flow to two-tile range??

Now that I think about it, I don't recall any cases where I'm sure I saw lava spread farther either. I was thinking I read something indicating that it could affect up to two tiles away, but Civilopedia looks more like it's just adjacent tiles. Does anyone know for sure?

	22-01-2004 17:46									#47
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay If anyone can come up with an alternative that does that as well as my four finalists did - not just in terms of getting the granary built, but also in terms of having the improved production tiles to make the pump sustainable - I'd love to hear it.

If you want pure expansion, a better solution is
Worker-Granary-Settler-Settler-Settler...

Initial worker irrigates towards cow
1st Worker complete in 3650, mines grass
Barracks prebuild
Cow irrigated in 3500, borders expand
Size 2 in 3350
Initial worker moves to mine other grass
Size 3 in 3150.
Move 1st Worker to forest
Pottery in 3100 (Deity)
Size 4 in 2950
Forest chopped in 2900, mine
Granary in 2850
Move initial worker to help 1st worker with mine
Size 5 in 2750
1st Settler in 2670 and every 4 turns after that

If you're feeling risky to be without military that long...

	22-01-2004 18:07									#48
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I'll go at it on Emperor. With my micromanagement skills, I'll hope to get a granary by 1000 BC at least.

	22-01-2004 18:36									#49
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I haven't read the spoiler, I want to test myself, but I'm not sure exactly where Nathan is sending the workers.

I'm thinking something like this:
Found on starting spot. Start Warrior.
Send Worker NW(7) - Road, then Mine.
Send Warrior NW(7) then N(8) - from the minimap, North looks most promising, and want a coastal spot for town 2.
Start Worker.
Send Worker1 S(2) to Road then Irrigate, followed by Irrigating then Roading Cow, then N(8) to Mine then Road 2nd BG.
Worker2 will Chop one of the forests, road, then road a different forest.
Granary as 3rd build.

With warrior going Northwestish and Worker improving Southwestish, I should have an idea where I want Town 2 on the coast. I want a Curragh out for contacts asap, and since we're seafaring, I think we'll need to lean towards more navy. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.


Possible SPOILER:







Also, looking closer, I think something may be peeking under the veil. Not sure, but maybe, just maybe this can be a two-pump start.






End potential spoil.

	22-01-2004 18:54									#50
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Hmm, didn't pay attention to the "large map" issue. Still, my granary would complete on T30... surely I can research pottery in 30 turns, even on a large map/emperor level?

AFAIK, lava only gets spewed 1 tile away from volcanoes. The capital should be safe.

-Arrian

	22-01-2004 19:06									#51
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Hrm. Nathan's right, when my granary completes I'm a bit short on shields. The city is size5 w/10food in the box, and can use:

Cow - 1s
Mined bgrass - 2s
Bgrass - 1s
fish - 0s
tobacco tile - 0s

That, plus the city tile, means +5spt if you're set up for +5fpt. Unless the chop uncovers bgrass, in which case it can be 6spt. Even then, it's not quite enough for a 4-turn pump.

However, if I have the chop worker mine first, then road, at worst I've got a 2f/1s tile there. Which means, at size5, the city will be at 6spt minimum, possibly 7 if I get lucky.

The 1st worker, meanwhile, would finish mining the 2nd bgrass tile on T34.

So...

T30: granary complete. Size5, 10f. Begin settler. WF to cow, fish, 2x bgrass, mined grass (the 2nd worker completes this mine on T29, and starts a road).
T31: 15f, 6s.
T32: Size6, 14s. WF to cow, fish, 2xbgrass, mgrass, tobacco. Road complete. 2nd worker moves to tobacco.
T33: 15f, 20s. 2nd worker mines.
T34: Size7, 29s.

Damn. 1 shield short. So my options (assuming I stick with 3 warriors first) are a) build a 3rd worker prior to 1st settler; b) do another chop; c) immediately following the chop (complete T23), move worker 2 to the closest bgrass and mine it; or d) do as Nathan suggests and irrigate but *not road* the grassland tile in the beginning.

-Arrian

	22-01-2004 19:23									#52
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Arrian, hope this is not a "spoiler" for you, but try revisiting your queue using the Fish instead of the Bonus Grassland for growth from size 1 to 2. I think you'll find that the faster growth solves many of the problems you're having getting to a 4-turn pump.


Dominae

	22-01-2004 19:38									#53
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reworking my plan to drop roading of the grass tile.

T1: build. Worker moves 1. WF to bonus grass. Build warrior.
T2: 2f, 2s. worker irrigates.
T3: 4f, 4s.
T4: 6f, 6s.
T5: 8f, 8s.
T6: 10f, warrior complete. Another. Irrigation complete, move to cow.
T7: 12f, 2s. Road.
T8: 14f, 4s.
T9: 16f, 6s.
T10: 18f, 8s. Road complete, irrigate.
T11: Borders expand. Size2, warrior complete. WF to cow + bgrass. Build another warrior.
T12: 3f, 3s.
T13: 6f, 6s. WF to cow + fish
T14: 11f, 8s. Irrigation complete, move to bgrass.
T15: 16f, warrior complete. Build worker. WF to Cow + bgrass. 1st worker mines.
T16: Size3, 5s. WF to Cow, Fish, and bgrass.
T17: 5f, 8s. WF to Cow, Fish, and Tobacco.
T18: 10f, worker complete, size2. WF to cow & fish. 2nd worker moves to 2nd bgrass. Start granary.
T19: 15f, 2s. 2nd worker chops. 2nd worker roads.
T20: Size 3, 6s. WF to Cow, Fish, and bgrass.
T21: 5f, 10s. Mine complete. 1st worker roads.
T22: 10f, 14s. Road complete, 2nd worker mines.
T23: 15f, 18s.
T24: Size4, 24s. Road complete, 1st worker moves to join 2nd and mines. WF cow, fish, both bgrass.
T25: 5f, 30s. Mine complete. Both workers move to forest tile east of town.
T26: 10f, 36s. chopx2
T27: 15f, 42s. WF to cow, 2x bgrass, fish, forest.
T28: 19f, Granary complete (chop complete ), begin settler. WF to Cow, 1xbgrass, fish, tobacco. One worker mines, the other roads.
T29: Size5, 6s. WF to Cow, Fish, 2xbgrass, tobacco.
T30: 15f, 12s.
T31: Size6, 20s. WF Cow/Fish/2xbgrass/tobacco/newly roaded grassland tile. Worker moves to tobacco.
T32: 15f, 26s. Worker roads.
T33: Size7, settler complete, size5.

I did some odd things here, because I've written and rewritten this about 3 times now. First, I did a solo forest chop that ended up wasting 1/2 the shields from the chop. Then I did something else and came in 1shield short of completing the granary, and would complete it with 5f in the box (better to complete it with 10 or more). Then I worked out how (maybe, depending on autoalloaction I wasn't sure about) to get the first settler out on T32, but that puts the city on a size4-6 cycle instead of the better (IMO) 5-7 cycle. Suffice it to say I've done too much of this now. Enough is enough.

-Arrian

	22-01-2004 19:41									#54
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Can't you use a Warrior to transition from 4-6 to 5-7? I think you may waste a couple of shields, but you're gonna need that garrison somewhere anyways, right?

	22-01-2004 19:43									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Arrian, hope this is not a "spoiler" for you, but try revisiting your queue using the Fish instead of the Bonus Grassland for growth from size 1 to 2. I think you'll find that the faster growth solves many of the problems you're having getting to a 4-turn pump. Dominae

Hmm, maybe. Maybe. It will slow that first warrior, but maybe that's not such a bad thing...

-Arrian

	22-01-2004 19:57									#56
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Arrian, why do you prefer the size 5-7 cycle? With no river, it takes Republic or a GA for a larger size to do anything more than pay for itself in the luxury slider, and a higher luxury slider setting to support a bigger capital tends to mean more wasted luxury spending in other cities unless there ends up being another good pump or two around. (On the other hand, if the slider has to be set high for a pump elsewhere anyhow, a larger capital becomes a lot more attractive.)

There are a few tricks that can be used to deal with a settler pump that does not yet have sufficient production. Working from Arrian's original plan, I would be tempted to crank out two workers before my first settler, with the first one chopping to speed up a settler and the second probably starting a mine. I'll need the workers sooner or later anyhow, and by the time the chop-assisted settler is finished, production should be up to speed. Alternatively, if you don't mind eventually having a city on a 5-7 size range, building slower settlers while transitioning up toward that size range is an option.

	22-01-2004 20:20									#57
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Alexman, if you got Pottery in 3100 on Deity, I bet you weren't using a large map.

	22-01-2004 20:21									#58
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I'll check again

Last edited by alexman on 22-01-2004 at 20:37

	22-01-2004 20:43									#59
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Arrian, why do you prefer the size 5-7 cycle? With no river, it takes Republic or a GA for a larger size to do anything more than pay for itself in the luxury slider, and a higher luxury slider setting to support a bigger capital tends to mean more wasted luxury spending in other cities unless there ends up being another good pump or two around.

That's a good point. I got used to thinking of 5-7 precisely because of the river trade bonus.

-Arrian

	22-01-2004 21:10									#60
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You're right, I was on a standard map. So the Worker-Granary-Settler thing works up to Demigod on a large map (Pottery in 3000), but not on Deity.