23-01-2004 02:27									#1
	Air Combat -- Bring it back! Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Hello All,

I've been playing Civ and reading this forum for a few years and now finally have something to post, so here goes:

After going back and playing Civ2 just for fun, I realized that I miss the way aerial warfare is conducted there. I further realized that I haven't built a single plane or carrier since the early days of Civ3. For Civ4, I'd like to see them bring back the old style where you take your bombers in and pound units/cities, then get them back home without being decimated by enemy fighters. Or what about sending a fighter out to pick off the enemy Engineers/Settlers, or in this case, workers? For me, it's better that way than seeing the plane flash by and disappear. Of course, I could just be missing some settings in the Editor. If so, I'll be quiet now.

	23-01-2004 04:11									#2
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Yup, they are going to remove the entire air combat system and add code so that C2-style air units work because you preferred it

C2's air combat was absolutely horrible.

EDIT: I see you were talking about C4. My point still stands.

	23-01-2004 04:28									#3
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Yeah, I meant the note as a suggestion for the next gen of Civ. What was so horrible about Civ2 air combat? Seems that in Civ3, the efforts of those creating graphics for air units are a bit wasted since they only flash across the attack area for less than a second. Oh well, to each his own...

	23-01-2004 05:39									#4
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While I do like the new air combat system in Civ3 I just wish there was a way to enjoy it more. Meaning slow down the animation so you can actually see the air/air-ground battle.

Not sure why so many don't like the old air combat system either.

It worked ok in SMAC(X) no?

	23-01-2004 05:53									#5
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quote: Originally posted by shanorb What was so horrible about Civ2 air combat?

...I think it might have had something to do with the idea that it takes a Jet Fighter a few years to bomb a tank.

	23-01-2004 05:56									#6
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quote: Originally posted by SporkPimp ...I think it might have had something to do with the idea that it takes a Jet Fighter a few years to bomb a tank.

And bombers could interdict infantry.




I much prefer how it is done now, but I agree withthe above comment that it occurs quite fast (not that it gets to that point in many of my games...)

	23-01-2004 06:26									#7
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a few years for a fighter to bomb a tank... hey, minor details I routinely send units out on 100 year missions

	23-01-2004 09:04									#8
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quote: What was so horrible about Civ2 air combat?

1. Ground units and ships were somehow unable to pass under airplanes flying MILES ABOVE THEM.

2. A fighter was unable to shoot down a bomber until AFTER the bomber had made its attack.

3. It took longer to move a Stealth Fighter from one end of my empire to another than to move a Howitzer (given RR's).

4. Fighters, Bombers, Cruise Missiles, and ICBM's could be easily stopped by surrounding a city with Airfields.

5. AA units were merely normal units with bonus defense vs air units.

	23-01-2004 09:35									#9
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Good points. Those things could be fixed, hopefully, in Civ4. Yes, logically, Civ3's system makes more sense, but in my humble opinion, takes a lot of the fun out of it. The one thing about it I'd love to see is being able to control the air units with the same granularity I can control the ground ones.

One idea that comes to mind is to have air units be invisible to ground units that can't attack them to prevent warriors from knocking down a 1hp bomber. The unit could pass by or even stay on the tile never knowing the plane was above it...

	23-01-2004 11:57									#10
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker quote: What was so horrible about Civ2 air combat? 1. Ground units and ships were somehow unable to pass under airplanes flying MILES ABOVE THEM. 2. A fighter was unable to shoot down a bomber until AFTER the bomber had made its attack. 3. It took longer to move a Stealth Fighter from one end of my empire to another than to move a Howitzer (given RR's). 4. Fighters, Bombers, Cruise Missiles, and ICBM's could be easily stopped by surrounding a city with Airfields. 5. AA units were merely normal units with bonus defense vs air units.

Yes indeed good points, but there is at least one that is a downside to the Civ3 way - Bombers can't be attacked in the open actively as they never ARE in the open to be attacked. It has to be via the passive counterattack when the bomber is already itself attacking. Being able to have air units occupy the same spaces as other civ's units could be a possibility, with the option to attack or not and just continue a flyover.

	23-01-2004 13:09									#11
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I like civ3's system better, as it really is more realistic.

Of course, one of my fonder Civ2 memories is sending spies out to buy enemy bombers before they could return after attcking...

	23-01-2004 19:02									#12
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I like civ3's system better, as it really is more realistic. Of course, one of my fonder Civ2 memories is sending spies out to buy enemy bombers before they could return after attcking...

How would that work then? They spell out words of propaganda with their black-leather-clad selves against the green of the ground? They have guns that shoot defection kits up to the pilots and gunners? Attracting the pilots to land and defect at the mere sight of them...?

	23-01-2004 19:50									#13
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I figured they used James Bond - style jet packs.

	23-01-2004 21:20									#14
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Yes indeed good points, but there is at least one that is a downside to the Civ3 way - Bombers can't be attacked in the open actively as they never ARE in the open to be attacked. It has to be via the passive counterattack when the bomber is already itself attacking. Being able to have air units occupy the same spaces as other civ's units could be a possibility, with the option to attack or not and just continue a flyover.

Not entirely true. You can offensively attack bombers by bombardment of the city / airfield they fly out of. In fact, this is a critical strategy to use if the enemy AI is using bombers against you.

I like the current system since it accurately reflects how air units are used in the "Real" world.

Rob

	23-01-2004 22:18									#15
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Gosh darn, I never used the airfield defense strategy or the 'James Bond' bribe.

	23-01-2004 22:28									#16
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I'll add another couple more peeves about Civ2 air combat:

1. Ground and sea units can block your bomber from returning to base, forcing a suicide attack or crash. AI bombers, otoh, could hang in the air indefinitely.

2. I really hated having to count out each space so you had enough movement to get back.

3. If you fumble finger and hit the wrong key, your plane could run out of gas and crash.

4. Accidently attacking a unit on the way back to base inexplicably crashes your bomber.

5. You can scout with missiles.

6. Fighters can attack 2, 3, 4 or more times per turn, making them better attack units than bombers.

7. Bombers gain a terrain advantage against fighters.

8. No way to escort bombers with fighters.

	23-01-2004 23:59									#17
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator 5. You can scout with missiles.

Precursor to the Predator???

	24-01-2004 00:28									#18
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Yes indeed good points, but there is at least one that is a downside to the Civ3 way - Bombers can't be attacked in the open actively as they never ARE in the open to be attacked. It has to be via the passive counterattack when the bomber is already itself attacking. Being able to have air units occupy the same spaces as other civ's units could be a possibility, with the option to attack or not and just continue a flyover.

If you don't have a fighter nearby, of course you can't shoot down the bomber (except for AA). Why should it be different?

	24-01-2004 04:01									#19
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3. If you fumble finger and hit the wrong key, your plane could run out of gas and crash.

Of course, I always hated when I accidentally hit the wrong key and crashed a plane, but think of it as a pilot going off course and running out of fuel. I know, lame, but it lends justification.

OK, now you're going to see where my productivity was today. What follows is one Civ Player's suggestion for air combat in Civ4. Points not addressed above are hopefully addressed below.

Some of the changes described below would require a change to the engine. For Civ4, now's a perfect time to make engine suggestions. Others would be more flags that would be set for certain units. The most radical suggestion is to allow air and land units of different countries occupy the same space at the same time.


- Bombers and fighters have 2 turns to attack and return to base. Fighters would have fewer moves/turn than the bombers. This way we could have fighter escorts -- all the way there and back for short missions, partial distance for longer ones.

- Add the following flags that can be enabled/disabled for all units: Can Attack Air Units, Lethal bombardment of Air Units.

- Allow planes to overfly ground/sea units. When moving manually with the arrow keys, when an opponent is encountered, give the option to attack or fly over. When using the Goto command, automatically fly over any opponent units encountered. Ground units that can attack air units(and therefore see them) also have the option of attacking or moving under.

- If a unit has the Can Attack Air Units Flag enabled, then it can hit enemy planes. Otherwise, they are invisible. A unit unable to attack can sit on the same square as a plane and not know it.

- If at war, units with the Can Attack Air Units and Zone of Control flags can fire on enemy planes as they pass over or on adjacent squares. Example: A fleet of bombers heading into enemy territory would be fired on by Flak Units they pass over or near. This is analogous to how it works now w/ ground units. Enable the Lethal Bombardment of Air Units Flag, and you could lose some or all of your bombers before they reach the target. Even after they drop their bombs, it's a long trip home through the same gauntlet.

- Bombers can't attack other air units, UNLESS, they are other bombers on the ground in a city or airbase. Grounded fighters at the bases would get airborn to fight the bombers. The older bombers w/ gun turrents would have a stronger defense than the newer bombers without armament. Stealth planes would have a higher defense due to their stealth.

- Bombers can attack only once before returning to base and refueling, regardless of whether they attack on the first or second turns, because they theoretically drop all their bombs at the target site. Fighters would have the blitz flag on and can attack as long as they can stay in the air.

I do like how missiles are handled in Civ3. Another flag, say....Missile?? that would negate the above rules for the unit.

A previous point was made about railroads enabling ground units to outdistance air units. This could be fixed by changing the movement cost of railroads. 1/5 or 1/8 seems about right...

	24-01-2004 04:05									#20
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Only two things that bug me about Civ3's air combat model:

1) Far too easy to move air units to areas where they would, realistically, take fire en route to... whizzing past cities filled with flak and SAMs, airlifting units into cities surrounded by enemy fighters, etc. Obvious solutions would be if AA units (Mobile SAMs, for example) had an "Airzone of Control" or something... rather like a fighter with a tiny operational range on Air Superiority.

2) No real air-escort system. I don't know if there's any way this could work and make the game more fun, but it does niggle at me mentally.

-SporkPimp

	24-01-2004 05:32									#21
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quote: Originally posted by SporkPimp Only two things that bug me about Civ3's air combat model: 1) Far too easy to move air units to areas where they would, realistically, take fire en route to... whizzing past cities filled with flak and SAMs, airlifting units into cities surrounded by enemy fighters, etc. Obvious solutions would be if AA units (Mobile SAMs, for example) had an "Airzone of Control" or something... rather like a fighter with a tiny operational range on Air Superiority. 2) No real air-escort system. I don't know if there's any way this could work and make the game more fun, but it does niggle at me mentally. -SporkPimp

Good points, imagine how cool it would be to have auto fighter escort for your bomber runs.

	24-01-2004 06:15									#22
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CM, just bomb with Fighter / JFs first.

I used every exploit imaginable with Civ2 air combat. Thank god it's gone.

	24-01-2004 13:01									#23
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I thought that using airports could still get you inercepted in Civ3 -- am I mistaken?

	24-01-2004 15:16									#24
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker If you don't have a fighter nearby, of course you can't shoot down the bomber (except for AA). Why should it be different?

I mean that if you DID have a Fighter around, it can only cause damage to Bombers with Air Superiority or with an assault on the Bombers' base. There is no attacking Bombers mid-mission, as it were. You can't take them on before they get to within range of their target, or after they have bombed and are heading home - you get the ONE chance at them - when and if they attack. An 'Airzone of control' as proposed by SporkPimp would satisfy this act, including if you were rebasing air units too - if the ZOC covered the only short distance route for the air units being rebased, then there would be the chance of having them engaged mud-rebasing.

	24-01-2004 15:20									#25
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Some good ideas to make air combat pretty well-rounded, shanorb.

quote: Originally posted by shanorb Stealth planes would have a higher defense due to their stealth.

I am not so sure about having planes invisible to all units but those that can attack them. Surely most early planes flying overhead would be apparent to any ground troops from the noise, whether they could shoot at them or not.

But, since you have introduced the idea of making them invisible to units who have not got the 'Can attack air units' flag, how about instead of (or as well as) improved defence for Stealth units you just add another flag 'Can see Stealth units', only to very advanced AA units. The extra defense could stay to reflect greater speed and difficulty of hitting Stealth jets flying so high up, or disappear in favour of only having highly advanced units able to see the planes to attack in the first place.

	24-01-2004 19:33									#26
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt I mean that if you DID have a Fighter around, it can only cause damage to Bombers with Air Superiority or with an assault on the Bombers' base. There is no attacking Bombers mid-mission, as it were. You can't take them on before they get to within range of their target, or after they have bombed and are heading home - you get the ONE chance at them - when and if they attack. An 'Airzone of control' as proposed by SporkPimp would satisfy this act, including if you were rebasing air units too - if the ZOC covered the only short distance route for the air units being rebased, then there would be the chance of having them engaged mud-rebasing.

Air Superiority IS attacking them mid-mission. It doesn't only apply to the tile the Fighter is on. If a bomber tries to bomb a tile within a few tiles of the Fighter, it still get intercepted.

	25-01-2004 00:58									#27
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What I hated about Civ2 (and SMAC for that matter) is that a single plane can wipe out a continent.

	26-01-2004 01:40									#28
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Some Bad things about Civ2 Air Combat, besides wahts already been discussed:

Stealth Fighters: These aren't meant to "Strafe the Ground" or attack Bombers like they did in Civ2. In reality they do neither.

Helicopters: The attack ability is something I miss from civ3. however the fuel=health idea doesnt quite make sense. Should have make it with similar movement, with no ability to enter ocean.

And yes bribing bombers in the air was just silly, just as bad as bribing cities in modern times "Hey Canada, How much u want for Toronto". :P

	26-01-2004 22:29									#29
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I haven't played a modern era war in a long time, not since Conquests added the feature. Can air units be directed to attack air units defending in a city? Order a fighter to 'strike' a city that has air units on superiority, but the strike is counter-superiority?

	26-01-2004 22:31									#30
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quote: Originally posted by CiverDan Some Bad things about Civ2 Air Combat, besides wahts already been discussed: Stealth Fighters: These aren't meant to "Strafe the Ground" or attack Bombers like they did in Civ2. In reality they do neither.

Real Stealth Fighters are just precision bombers and since there already is a Stealth Bomber, it would be redundant. Stealth Fighters should remain air superiority units.

quote: Helicopters: The attack ability is something I miss from civ3. however the fuel=health idea doesnt quite make sense. Should have make it with similar movement, with no ability to enter ocean.

The ability to attack with helicopters from the sea is a cornerstone of US Marine strategy, however as you said, helocopters should be limited to coastal and sea tiles - never ocean unless they are near a carrier.

TOT fixed the fuel=health thing with an attribute, but you had to mod the helocopter unit to get it right.