07-02-2004 03:39									#31
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I think evolving wonders is a great idea it ads a level of realism and could be an elegant solution to balancing gameplay. Or it could destroy the world as we know it. I guess it all depends on how its implemented

	07-02-2004 22:13									#32
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tyrantpimp, what are the dangers of this possibility ?

	07-02-2004 23:10									#33
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A wonders obsolescence is intentional. A wonder having an effect AFTER its intended obsolescence is theoretically unbalancing, especially in comparison to more modern wonders.

	07-02-2004 23:32									#34
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observing wonders,we could notice that ancient ones have all evolved in touristic attraction (gold benefit) in the real world,whereas most of science-based, modern,wonders will be made obsolete by scientific evolution.Non science-based wonders tend to evoluate throough the age in their role,in the civilization who build them.

	07-02-2004 23:42									#35
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While realism is a nice aim to consider, and obviously unrealistic circumstances should be avoided, game balance is typically of more importance.

No use in a game being realistic, if its not challenging, balanced (both for Human/AI and MP) and fun.

We can't determine what effect extra advantages for obsolete wonders will have until its tested in a structured play test.

	07-02-2004 23:48									#36
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You should also note that all of the (seven) Ancient wonders have NOT evolved in tourist attraction... primarily since only one survived (Khufu's Great Pyramid.) Having nothing to see is a disadvantage to a tourist attraction...

	08-02-2004 06:30									#37
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Great ideas. This might not be the right place but I would like to say the visible wonders mod should be made part of the game...

	19-02-2004 23:21									#38
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All great ideas! Maybe we ought to take suggestions on 1 wonder at a time so we can focus on how best to do this. Or is it too early for this sort of thing?

	19-02-2004 23:33									#39
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Yep... way too early. To some degree we're still at the stage of changing the structure of how things are defined and what options we'd like for those structures.


Deciding what values we'd like within the game files, for various things, will come after that works been done... although a start has been made in a couple of areas...

You're particularly welcome to brainstorm ideas for new wonder & building effects though...

	30-09-2004 03:21									#40
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This is a great thread. Expanding on many ideas i've seen here, what about culturally limited wonders?

Civ 3 for instance has different societal attributes...a civ can be scientific, commercial, militaristic, religious, expansionist, industrious, etc.
For a religious civ, things such as J.S. Bach's Cathedral would be very powerful, Sun tzu's war academy for militaristic civs, hoover dam or something like that for industrius civs, etc.

The idea is that it is to your civ's advnatage to build it's special kind of wonder. all civs could technically build all wonders, but they would have the greatest for the culture type their meant for. The AI could be programmed to build only it's special type of wonders (it's not smart enough to know when to build wonders to spite other players).

This could be applied in many ways, as many different levels of "greatness' for the wonders as the programmers would like.

	30-10-2004 01:06									#41
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Many of the early wonders are so watered down they aren't worth it. The good ones are still secondary to conquest & expansion- conquing a 9th city rougly increases food, production science by 12% (assuming each city is about equal) while Aristotle's Lyserium increases science only by 20%, Chichen Izta decreases crime under despotism from 30 to 20% the 10% icrease being roughly the value of another conquered city, but when the switch to monarchy occurs the normal crime rate is 20% so CI will cut it to 13%, the 7% diffence is still about the same as conquering a city.
Ramayana is also useful, but my guess is that ailysis would prove it isn't all that great.

Gutenburg's Bible is also a nice wonder to have, but since I use hoplite/archer/slaver combos to reach my 35 city limit, by the time my troops settle into cities, I usually don't switch from Fascism to Democracy, because Corporate Republic is right around the corner, so the +2 happiness bonus is less useful.

Penacylin is good, but it takes forever to pay for itself, again it's less valuable than it seems.

Limiting the early wonders to a time frame makes them worthless.