23-01-2004 19:33									#1
	Emergency military plan Remove this text

I guess I'm in a longterm-thinking mood. Perhaps also a bit early to talk about this, but I was wondering about what we could do to keep off an alliance of permapacted Hive-Drones who started attacking PUT, with us then as the next logical target.

How about in that scenario we create a base with lots of ecodamage (due to crawling minerals to thay base) with as goal to raise the sea levels? We would then have a combat advantage with the Maritime Control Centre, as the Hive-Drones would be forced to build a navy to capture our sea bases. Compared to us, they would also lose more with a sea level raise, as they have a higher land base population (half the population of a base is killed if it goes from land to sea), many more crawlers on the land and more advanced terraformation (condensers etc, while at the moment we can only lose a bunch of cheap forests).

Other possibilities combined with the sea level raise scenario could be building the Neural Amplifier and researching towards Centauri Meditation and Isles of the Deep. Then we'd have a 50% advantage at psi combat and also +30% on attack if we went Green and could keep the Manifold Nexus from drowning. Aiming for psi combat would also render the better weapons, armour and fusion reactor useless the Hive-Drones will almost certainly get before us due to their higher research rate.

How does that sound for an emergency plan?

	23-01-2004 19:42									#2
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Well, sea levels take 20 years to rise from when they start, and it takes a few pops first. It would be 30 yeasr time before it works. That kinda rules out the emergency side of the plan

Then they may just use formers to raise land.

However, if we went for mass min production now, trying to get to very high, in 30 or so years it *could* have a devastating effect. With us having the MCC we have an advantage, and with the CBA too we can't be chop/dropped at all. Leaving them with no alternative but to either outgrow us and go for Diplomatic victor of to build ships.

With the MCC we lose the least from higher sea levels. I say we just try to raise production and go green, possibly getting the NA. We can capture a MW army, capture IoDs from the sea, and use them against the Hive/Drones. They won't expect it, it would mess up their plans, and would be a lot of fun

I wouldn't say try to get ED, as much as try to raise production as much as possible. We gain in production, can capute MWs (with +3 Planet at 75%? ) and with the NA it makes our army look very good indeed. Obviously switch to Knowledge ASAP though, since with Wealth we lose the all important Morale on it.

	24-01-2004 00:31									#3
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Raising sea levels for defense? Original, but IMHO too slow - I am definetly for psi dominance. I think either we CBA and air dominance or NA + psi dominance, added to strong navy. But I am new at this DG, so I could be mistaken. And it is easy to build isle army (green + Manifold Nexus) which doesn`t not need to be upgraded and are formidable strength, at least until Fusion Power is discovered.

EDIT: I meant IoD when I wrote worm army, since IoD are basically compromised of worms.

Last edited by Illuminatus on 24-01-2004 at 14:23

	24-01-2004 05:50									#4
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Defense against a MW army is fairly easy as well, it's not so expensive for the other factions to upgrade the units with HT, and where are we then with an army of MW. Besides, since there's a lot of sea between us and the Drones/Hive, IoD are better then.

I would still go for CBA, air power stays important in the long run. And for that long run, working to a sealevel rise isn't that bad idea, even if it isn't for an emergency. It can be done simultaneously with another plan, will keep the other faction's formers busy, and perhaps forcing them to abandon or delay assault plans

	24-01-2004 08:37									#5
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Remember, with the MCC your IoD's also get upgraded to 6-movement points units

	24-01-2004 20:55									#6
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Can I summarize the majority opinion as that it's a good idea to aim for high production and as a possible consequence a sea level raise, and also that the CBA and air power should still be our main priority, but if that fails, that the Neural Amplifier and a psi army is a good idea?

GeoModder:

quote: Defense against a MW army is fairly easy as well, it's not so expensive for the other factions to upgrade the units with HT, and where are we then with an army of MW.

In land combat this is most likely true, though for naval combat, which would grow in importance if we manage to raise the sea level, Isles of the Deep combined with convential ships and choppers would probably give us a much better chance to survive a Hive-Drone attack, especially if the Hive-Drones would surpass us in military technology in the future.

quote: Besides, since there's a lot of sea between us and the Drones/Hive, IoD are better then.

I agree. Especially if we get the NA, the enemy would face a combat disadvantage of 2 to 3 when trying to attack IoDs.

obstructor:

quote: and are formidable strength, at least until Fusion Power is discovered.

Reactor type has no effect on psi combat. That's the nice thing about IoDs: even if we fall back in the tech race and the Hive-Drones get fusion much sooner than us, we'd still be able to have a competitive army.

	24-01-2004 23:49									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Reactor type has no effect on psi combat. That's the nice thing about IoDs: even if we fall back in the tech race and the Hive-Drones get fusion much sooner than us, we'd still be able to have a competitive army.

I wasn`t thinking on increased hitpoints.
Fusion Power=Fusion Reactor=all units cheaper.

Imagine tons of cheap, advanced units. I do not think we can rely on breeding native units for defense forever.
I meant, what psi supremacy means if they sent tons of empath troops. After Fusion Power, we can`t solely rely on Iod, we will need aircraft. We will have naval dominance, but I mean - Hive + Drones = unstoppable shipyards. They will eventually swarm us with empath ships and their pure numbers will eventually outrun us, even with NA. I am sure that they won`t mind losing two or three ships for our IoD just to destroy our psi army. Combining non armoured trance empath cruisers with regular ones, they could beat us with their abbility to easily produce units. We will hold on, but for how long? But if we immediately start buildup of IoD with which we can capture occasional wild lifeforms But locusts... Why not build several Iod and raise an army to overrun one of AI factions? Angels would be a fine target because:
1. AI sucks
2. Moonson Jungle
3. Excellent tactical position against Hive in future.
4. war .evil:
5. we can use the fact that they are in vendetta with Hive for our advantage (unless they realize what we want to do).
But only if Hive/Drone do not attack PUT. Then we blew it.

	25-01-2004 05:22									#8
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quote: Originally posted by obstructor Why not build several Iod and raise an army to overrun one of AI factions? Angels would be a fine target because: 1. AI sucks 2. Moonson Jungle 3. Excellent tactical position against Hive in future. 4. war .evil: 5. we can use the fact that they are in vendetta with Hive for our advantage (unless they realize what we want to do). But only if Hive/Drone do not attack PUT. Then we blew it.

Is a good idea to give all human factions a common, if temporary, goal. And in the meantime an upgrade of defenses is possible as well off course against a Hive/Drone military buildup

	26-01-2004 00:19									#9
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We would just take a few northern bases for strategic air cover against Hive/Drones. But it will hard to do it as Hive/Drone would surely strike us and PUT.

	26-01-2004 02:13									#10
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I dont realy favor a native life based aproatch but perhaps this is just my personal dislike for native life and preference for tec.

I think our plans should consist of tec trading with Univerisy, Probe Defences, strong Navy, pushing for Fusion, Chop Drop the Belivers when we get the nessary tec and expanding into other unocupied territories.

Also I belive that Raising Sea Levels would just give Hive and Drones more coastal bases, as of now we have near 100% coastal, their at less then 25% so they cant fully channel their Economic potential into Sea Unit Production as well as we can. Also we would losse a great deal of our mineral production if we drowned our continent. We also lack SeaFormers to make use of the submerged land. Overall I think the Hive and Drones could adapt faster to Sea Level changes then we could.

	26-01-2004 02:40									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] Overall I think the Hive and Drones could adapt faster to Sea Level changes then we could.

My thought exactly.

	27-01-2004 01:21									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] I dont realy favor a native life based aproatch but perhaps this is just my personal dislike for native life and preference for tec. I think our plans should consist of tec trading with Univerisy, Probe Defences, strong Navy, pushing for Fusion, Chop Drop the Belivers when we get the nessary tec and expanding into other unocupied territories.

I don't like MW either, but IoD around our borders in Drone -and Hive direction are usefull for me.

Probes and Navy, along with Needlejets. I'm all for that.
We're to much wide-open for probe attacks now anyway, and those don't cost minerals

	27-01-2004 22:54									#13
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obstructor:

quote: I do not think we can rely on breeding native units for defense forever. I meant, what psi supremacy means if they sent tons of empath troops.

It would give us a 3 against 2 disadvantage, which is still much better than when defending against conventional weapons, especially when they're boosted with fusion reactors.

quote: After Fusion Power, we can`t solely rely on Iod, we will need aircraft.

Of course of course. I was just thinking we should consider a strong psi combat element to our military forces, besides an air fleet, conventional navy etc...

quote: We will have naval dominance, but I mean - Hive + Drones = unstoppable shipyards.

The Hive already has the Command Nexus, and Drogue says the Hive will build the CBA, and the Drones the CDF and CF. In other words, the naval element is the only advantage we've got. If the Hive-Drones build lots of naval yard, they can challenge us, but they will still be less strong than when we try to counter them on their fields of excellence: land and air.

quote: They will eventually swarm us with empath ships and their pure numbers will eventually outrun us, even with NA. I am sure that they won`t mind losing two or three ships for our IoD just to destroy our psi army. Combining non armoured trance empath cruisers with regular ones, they could beat us with their abbility to easily produce units.

Likewise we can use our IoDs to destroy their convential heavily armoured ships, and use convential ships to destroy their non-armoured empath ships. So battles would be determined by who can attack first. And since we have 2 more movement points than our opponents, we have an advantage on this field.

Impaler:

quote: I dont realy favor a native life based aproatch but perhaps this is just my personal dislike for native life and preference for tec. I think our plans should consist of tec trading with Univerisy, Probe Defences, strong Navy, pushing for Fusion, Chop Drop the Belivers when we get the nessary tec and expanding into other unocupied territories.

In the time it would take to accomplish all that, we'll already be conquered by the Hive-Drones for a long time. We have to face the facts: Hive production is 2.5 times that of us, their labs production is three times that of us and their current tech costs half that of us. The same probably counts in a slightly lesser degree for the Drones. Unless a miracle happens, there is no way our production and research can catch up with the Hive-Drones and no way we can get to Fusion Power in a reasonable time: the Hive-Drones will get it many years before us. So though I would most certainly prefer fusion reactor units over psi units, I think we have to face the facts, acknowledge our technological inferiority and aim for a realistic goal: psi units. Psi units will have a better chance than a convential fission reactor army to defeat a fusion army.

quote: Also I belive that Raising Sea Levels would just give Hive and Drones more coastal bases, as of now we have near 100% coastal, their at less then 25% so they cant fully channel their Economic potential into Sea Unit Production as well as we can.

Despite having near 100% coastal bases, do we pour all our resources in sea units? No, we let a few bases do all the sea unit production, and let the other bases concentrate on other matters. The same would count for the Hive-Drones: whether they have 25% or 100% coastal bases, they'll most likely only build naval yards in a few bases and concentrate all their sea unit production there.

quote: Also we would losse a great deal of our mineral production if we drowned our continent.

The Hive-Drones will most likely lose a greater portion of their population, terraformation and mineral production than us.

quote: We also lack SeaFormers to make use of the submerged land.

As we know of our own potential plans, we can already start concentrating on building sea formers instead of land formers, way before the Hive-Drones start doing so.

	29-01-2004 02:32									#14
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In case their comes an unification with PEACE (and it becomes an honest one), rising sea levels will be for our combined benefit then. 2 factions with strong navies means we can theorically block 2 opposing factions.

	29-01-2004 16:56									#15
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Our inferior tec output wont last much longer. Once we take FreeMarket and have Evn Econ we can match the Hives Reserch output and I see the Drones are reserching PolySoftware which may indicate their not moving towards MMI after all. The Hive and Drones will be several tecs away from MMI unless they steal some more tecs from UNI so I belive we are still in the race (we must ofcorse try hard). We should continue pushing for MMI as hard as we can and once we hit it we can start to focus on a new goal (likly Cloning Vats).