24-01-2004 04:38									#1
	Shouldn't commercial allow for cheaper commerce-based improvements? Enter the AD-FREE zone

Religious = cheaper religious-based improvements
Scientific = cheaper scientific improvements
Agricultural = cheaper agricultural improvements
Seafaring = cheaper sea-based improvements
Militaristic = cheaper military buildings

Commercial = all improvements have standard cost

What was the reasoning for this? Why doesn't commercial allow for cheaper marketplaces, banks and stock exchanges (as well as making Adam Smith's cheaper)? We all talk about commercial being dubious in the ancient age. Well, reducing the cost of marketplaces would help to make commercial civs seriously rich in the early part of the game.

Does anyone else agree? Or are commercial improvements already cheaper and I just haven't noticed?

	24-01-2004 06:06									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

Marketplaces or banks should be enough.

	24-01-2004 06:07									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Commercial civs should have more gold overall, yes? And thus are able to afford all improvements more easily.

(But I had the same thought too, back when.)

	24-01-2004 06:41									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

what about expansionists getting cheaper grainaries?

	24-01-2004 06:46									#5
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

No, I'd say that pretty definately falls under Agricultural.

I think Commercial should get cheaper Marketplaces, at least. That alone would be a nice boost.

	24-01-2004 07:51									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I don't think that Expansionistic should get cheaper Granaries; that is agricultural. Cheaper Courthouses, though, that would make sense and perhaps the Forbidden Palace would be nice too. As to Commercial, I would think cheaper Marketplaces, Banks, and Stock Exchanges would be a nice touch. Perhaps Commerical Harbors, as well.

	24-01-2004 08:08									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

at cheaper courthouses. that would be a useful addition [sarcasm]

I see how you would think cheaper graineries=ag, but cheaper graineries=faster growth=greater expansion, imho.

	24-01-2004 08:23									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

Expansionist doesn't really need a boost, but cheaper Courthouses (and maybe Police Stations) couldn't hurt.

I just had an idea - why not cheaper Aqueducts (and maybe Hospitals)? Cheaper Aqueducts = more growth = expansion, and it lets us leave Granaries as Agricultural.

Oh, and I think "Commercial Docks" should probably be Commercial

	24-01-2004 09:01									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Expansionists are easy - they should get cheaper settlers . Either in shields or food or both. Isn't it pretty much the definition what (non-militaristic) expansionism is all about?

And I'd rather give scouts to militarists.

If commercial worked as advertised - ie reduced corruption - that would be #1 trait. As it stands now, it's kinda silly: it helps large, far-flung empires a little bit. But if you have managed to create such an empire, you obviously don't need any extra help

	24-01-2004 09:11									#10
	Support Apolyton

Cheaper settlers isn't possible.

	24-01-2004 09:12									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Perhaps Ind = cheaper factories/power plants/Hoover? Much later in the game than the other traits, but that is cushioned by the increased worker rate.

	24-01-2004 09:14									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

In fact, has anyone ever considered making all wonders cheaper for those civs that share that wonder's traits? If a wonder is com/ind, a exp/ind civ could build it for 25% cheaper, and a com/ind civ could build it for 50% cheaper?

	24-01-2004 10:09									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

That is also impossible.

	24-01-2004 10:09									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Perhaps Ind = cheaper factories/power plants/Hoover? Much later in the game than the other traits, but that is cushioned by the increased worker rate.

Industrious doesn't need a boost.

	24-01-2004 10:48									#15
	Put an end to popups!

I don't think we're discussing what is possible versus impossible, since it is equally evident that we cannot change the traits, but they can with a patch.

That said, half-rate buildings and wonders of the appropriate type makes perfect sense to me.

	24-01-2004 18:52									#16
	Got spare money?

I think cheaper Marketplaces would be too powerful because of the happiness effect. Besides, Commercial already get a bonus: less corruption/waste and extra gold from the center tile.

The corruption reduction from being Commercial is worth way more than one Marketplace/Bank/Exchange per city in most cases, in the long run. Especially now with the 1.15 Forbidden Palace, where you need to boost your OCN as much as possible.

	24-01-2004 19:39									#17
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Commercial is strong enough. I find the difference, particularly in research, to be noticeable between commercial and non-commercial civs by the middle of the Medieval era when Education and Banking become available.

	24-01-2004 20:04									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by skywalker Cheaper settlers isn't possible.

Yes, it is. You just have to make a variant of the default settler in the game editor and only give the new variant to the expansionist nations. In other words, you would have to create two versions of "settlers." A new one for the expansionists, and the default one for everyone else. It would definately work.

	24-01-2004 20:12									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think it would be a bit boring if the effect of every trait were simply reduced cost for the relevant buildings. I'd say it's fine as it is.

As for cheaper settlers - possible in terms of implementability, certainly, would it be possible without making the game greatly imbalanced? Imagine the power. They'd have to be not much cheaper.

	24-01-2004 20:38									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It could range from a cheaper unit "Expansionist Settler" like Shades suggested to something like the city square of expansionists civs produces extra 1fpt, 1spt but only when building settlers. [Although the latter is obviously impossible to do with the editor.]

	24-01-2004 22:45									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Shades Yes, it is. You just have to make a variant of the default settler in the game editor and only give the new variant to the expansionist nations. In other words, you would have to create two versions of "settlers." A new one for the expansionists, and the default one for everyone else. It would definately work.

True. Now the question is, does Expansionist need another special unit? Is it really all that weak? IMO, no.

	24-01-2004 23:18									#22
	Support Apolyton

I'd actually like to see expansionist have lower distance corruption. The would balance the scout going out of use pretty quickly(though not as quickly as the past, since map trading us delayed). It also seems reasonable since being expansionist they are by natured more adapt to ruling larger areas. Just my 2cents.

Aggie

	25-01-2004 00:10									#23
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Aggie I'd actually like to see expansionist have lower distance corruption.

Allegedly, that's what commercial is for

For what it's worth, commercial and expansionist are definitely two weakest traits.

Let's see, industrious gets an extra shield in size 6 cities. Say, 15 cities x 60 turns in medieval era alone = 900 bonus shields. That's without even mentioning faster workers.

Scientific gets 140 shields reduction per library+university combo. 6 cities, 840 shields. That's without even mentioning bonus techs that may be worth thousands gps.

Religious gets 110 shields discount per temple+cathedral, again, tons of shields saved without even mentioning shorter anarchy.

Militaristic gets discounts on a bunch of useless buildings but still, cheaper barracks are very nice early on, cheaper walls are occasionally useful and cheaper harbors are very nice. Not to mention faster promotions = more leaders = more infrastructure.

Commercial effects, while nice, only show up some time into medieval era (at the earliest) and the game is likely to be pretty much decided by then. Commercial trait is a bit like American F-15 UU: nice but totally irrelevant.

And finallly we get this little gem of expansionist civs. On higher difficulty levels you are lucky to get The Wheel and Mysticism from huts which, most likely, you can trade for anyway. Just lovely.

Little wonder that in vanilla Civ commercial + expansionist England was the least popular Civ to play.

So imo commercial and expansionist traits could definitely use some help.

Reducing corruption would be very nice for commercial. Why can't Firaxis do something simple and say, reduce normal corruption levels by 20% for commercial civs rather than tweaking OCN modifiers and such in a way that only a PhD in math can understand.

And for expansionists cheaper settlers is the most logical explanation of what this trait is all about... Real life America, Russia, and England had one thing in common: plentiful settlers and colonists. The easiest way to represent this in a game is to give expansionists cheaper settlers.

	25-01-2004 02:32									#24
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Well, if expansionist civs were given cheaper settlers, at the very least scouts would need to be removed. Both are modiable.

	25-01-2004 07:26									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

To make Commercial more powerful, they should reduce *effective* corruption by 10% or 20% ("effective" meaning the actual shields and commerce lost, not the background corruption %).

	30-01-2004 00:54									#26
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

IMO, EXP, COM and MIL traits need a boost.

Cheaper courthouses should be implemented for COM.

Mayb EXP could start the game with 2 settlers instead on 1.

MIL could start the game with 1 warrior (or even 10% cheaper military units throughout the game. I don't think this would unbalance the game more than it already is).

	30-01-2004 01:19									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Com is a solid trait, IMO. Added gold per city tile, +25% to OCN, starting tech = alphabet. That's pretty strong. Obviously, the bigger you are, the stronger it is, at least until you cross the OCN.

Discount markets - too strong. Marketplaces are one of the single best city improvements in the game, if not THE best. 50 shields for a market? That would ROCK. Too much.

Discount banks - not necessarily too strong, but seems odd w/o discount markets, doesn't it?

Discount courthouses - hmm, not sure. I'd like it, since I already like Commercial and build courthouses early and often.

-Arrian

	30-01-2004 01:21									#28
	Increase Your PM Length

Though I think MIL is ok as it is, the boost I'd give it (if possible) is a slight reduction in War Weariness... perhaps equivalent to having Universal Suffrage.

Starting with a combat unit strikes me as a bad idea.

-Arrian

	30-01-2004 01:31									#29
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Com is a solid trait, IMO. Added gold per city tile, +25% to OCN, starting tech = alphabet. That's pretty strong. Obviously, the bigger you are, the stronger it is, at least until you cross the OCN. Discount markets - too strong. Marketplaces are one of the single best city improvements in the game, if not THE best. 50 shields for a market? That would ROCK. Too much. Discount banks - not necessarily too strong, but seems odd w/o discount markets, doesn't it? Discount courthouses - hmm, not sure. I'd like it, since I already like Commercial and build courthouses early and often. -Arrian

The courthouse idea is an intriguing one, but I agree with Arrian that it's already a powerful trait and doesn't need a boost. You already get lower corruption which means you have more productive cities. A cheap marketplace is almost too powerful unless they moved the luxury item bonuses back to banks or later.

	30-01-2004 01:33									#30
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Though I think MIL is ok as it is, the boost I'd give it (if possible) is a slight reduction in War Weariness... perhaps equivalent to having Universal Suffrage. Starting with a combat unit strikes me as a bad idea. -Arrian

I'm not sure the militaristic trait receiving a war weariness reduction is a good idea. Right now you only receive war weariness in governments that give you other powerful bonuses. The idea behind war weariness is to counter the effects of those bonuses in other governments when you're at war. A war weariness reduction would just make a representative government more powerful than it already is, while doing nothing if you're in another government that has no war weariness. Basically IMHO, it would take even more "which government" strategy out of the equation.

Oh, and giving an extra settler to the expansionist trait would be overpowering as well. Starting with two settlers means you're automatically going to have a better starting empire (discounting the surrounding terrain) than the AI at all levels up to deity.