26-01-2004 10:27									#61
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quote: PR is a more democratic way to overcome any gerrymandering in the house. Much of the concessions to states' rights in the constitution are now archaic and undemocratic. like our current way of amending the constitution. It should simply be a referendum with 66% voting yes to enact the amendment, not the archaic process we have right now. new communications technology has rendered a lot of federalist ideas obsolete and redundant.

Just because you think it is 'archaic' doesn't mean it is bad . The 'undemocratic' parts are GOOD. Do you even see the crap that the House of Representatives passes on a daily basis? We need the adults in the Senate to put the kibbosh on them.

And your 'refendum' amendment idea would have resulted in ban on homosexual marriage already.

It was a republican form of government because while the people should have a say, they shouldn't have too much a say because people are dumb .

States Rights, baby! .

	26-01-2004 10:29									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui States Rights, baby! .

Where?

	26-01-2004 10:32									#63
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Well, as a goal..

And they have SOME rights..

Oh, and those who are for proportional representation in the Senate should back my goal to eliminate the amendment that provides for direct election of Senators, and go back to the state legislatures deciding Senators .

	26-01-2004 10:45									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui [It was a republican form of government because while the people should have a say, they shouldn't have too much a say because people are dumb .

It is because we have a crap education system. people need to be properly educated, especially in civics, so they can make good decisions. And since they would be properly educated and taught tolerance in school from an early age, they wont be racist, or homophobic, or whatever. Better science education would also make people more resistant to bible thumper BS.

	26-01-2004 10:52									#65
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quote: It is because we have a crap education system. people need to be properly educated, especially in civics, so they can make good decisions. And since they would be properly educated and taught tolerance in school from an early age, they wont be racist, or homophobic, or whatever. Better science education would also make people more resistant to bible thumper BS.

So you basically want people have no individualism and be willing slaves to your ideology. How... communist .

And better education doesn't necessarily make people less dumb, look at the Finns .

	26-01-2004 11:02									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: It is because we have a crap education system. people need to be properly educated, especially in civics, so they can make good decisions. And since they would be properly educated and taught tolerance in school from an early age, they wont be racist, or homophobic, or whatever. Better science education would also make people more resistant to bible thumper BS. So you basically want people have no individualism and be willing slaves to your ideology. How... communist .

Oh so, informing people equals indoctrination, riiiight.

	26-01-2004 11:05									#67
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quote: Oh so, informing people equals indoctrination, riiiight.

If you are in change of it... then yes, it probably does .

	26-01-2004 14:57									#68
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Imran: If you have a flat tax with a ceiling, it is slightly regressive. If SS tax has a $65k ceiling, then compare the percentage that somone on $20k a year spends, and someone on $2million a year. The latter will pay a lower percentage, because of the ceiling.

Most taxes in the US are progressive, but many here seem to want a more progressive system.

Odin: Except for the proportional representation of the Senate. Personally, I'd prefer a completely appointed upper house, like the UK has, but their would need to be limits on controls, and ways to remove them, in that case.

Maniac: Will reply when I have time

	26-01-2004 17:47									#69
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MOMMY!!!!

Imran's being mean by sticking his tongue out at us!

	26-01-2004 19:11									#70
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I thought that a tax that was neither progressive nor regressive would be a poll tax - everyone pays the same amount. If you tax on a percentage of income, people with greater incomes pay more, which makes it progressive.

A couple of things I'd do, in no particular order:

Change tariffs to mirror those of other countries. If Elbonia imposes an average 20% tariff on goods exported to it, impose a 20% tariff on imports from Elbonia. An exception: if the other country has an identical policy, cut tariffs entirely so that they do so too.

Impose a truly representative democracy. Anyone can vote at any time, for anyone. Their vote is passed along to the person they voted for, and then along to the person that person voted for, and so on. Eventually you end up with a selection of the top (say) 50 people, each with a proportion of the population directly or indirectly supporting them, with the ability to cast the votes of their supporters on each issue.

(Note some of the outcomes: if an issue comes up on which the people and the leaders disagree, they can be ousted overnight by a swinging faction of re-voters. Representatives are no longer regionalised - rather than standing for regions, they would probably end up representing factions of the population, such as aging hippies or disgruntled nerds.)

Impose some sort of basic eugenics system. Nothing too fancy - just getting rid of inherited disease, and limiting family size. Even allocating children by lottery would be better than the current system, in which humanity is being selected for the inability to use birth control.

	26-01-2004 19:16									#71
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quote: Could someone translate this to non-Luddite? Is super-human technology anything more advanced than using fingernails to dig up delicious roots?

I mean technology capable of surpassing humans in mental capacity. Technology should be our tools, not the other way around.

	26-01-2004 19:17									#72
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And no Sky, I wasn't talking about genetic engineering. That's bad too!

	26-01-2004 19:25									#73
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quote: Originally posted by JellyBean I thought that a tax that was neither progressive nor regressive would be a poll tax - everyone pays the same amount. If you tax on a percentage of income, people with greater incomes pay more, which makes it progressive.

No, a progressive tax is one which has a larger effect on richer people, where they pay more as a percentage than poorer people. Income tax is progressive in most nations, because the percentage gets higher the more you earn. Poll tax is regressive, because it took a higher percentage of a poor persons income. Road tax is also regressive (in the UK). A flat rate income tax is neither, it is between the two.

The grey area comes for things like UK council tax (the bigger your house, the more you pay). I would consider it the equivilant of a flat rate income tax, because you pay proportionally more the bigger your house, but it is not tied to income. So, for instance, my parents pay a large amount of council tax, because we have a large house, but they receive less than £25000 per year (joint income) because my dad is retired. So it hits us a lot more than our next door neighbours, who have a similar size house, but who earn ~£75000 per year. But it is mostly a flat tax, as income is generally proportional to house size.

	26-01-2004 19:31									#74
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BTW, if I had my druthers I would totally erase state borders and reorganize the country. At least that way, Texans couldn't get made fun of anymore.

	26-01-2004 20:57									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Odin PR is a more democratic way to overcome any gerrymandering in the house. Much of the concessions to states' rights in the constitution are now archaic and undemocratic. like our current way of amending the constitution. It should simply be a referendum with 66% voting yes to enact the amendment, not the archaic process we have right now. new communications technology has rendered a lot of federalist ideas obsolete and redundant. Oh, I would chainge the FICA tax and make it progressive. That would cure the Social Security buget woes.

still why not just dissolve the senate, Wouldn't it eventually become corrupt(heh) and gerrymandered as well?

	26-01-2004 20:59									#76
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quote: Originally posted by JellyBean I thought that a tax that was neither progressive nor regressive would be a poll tax - everyone pays the same amount. If you tax on a percentage of income, people with greater incomes pay more, which makes it progressive.

thats called a flat tax, and its not progressive because they don't pay a greater percentage of their income(which I don't see why they should have to...) :P

	26-01-2004 22:11									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy I mean technology capable of surpassing humans in mental capacity. Technology should be our tools, not the other way around.

intelligence != power - just look at the President

	26-01-2004 23:56									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Maniac: Will reply when I have time

No problem. I don't have much time myself. Btw, this is what happens in a country without minimum wages and labour unions. Certainly, it may lead to more wellfare for a part of the population, but is this really the world you want to live in?

	26-01-2004 23:59									#79
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I already have my own party.

	27-01-2004 01:32									#80
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quote: Originally posted by JellyBean Change tariffs to mirror those of other countries. If Elbonia imposes an average 20% tariff on goods exported to it, impose a 20% tariff on imports from Elbonia. An exception: if the other country has an identical policy, cut tariffs entirely so that they do so too. Impose some sort of basic eugenics system. Nothing too fancy - just getting rid of inherited disease, and limiting family size. Even allocating children by lottery would be better than the current system, in which humanity is being selected for the inability to use birth control.

	27-01-2004 08:33									#81
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I already have my own party.

Yes, and we're all very much impressed by your "party."

	27-01-2004 08:46									#82
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quote: Change tariffs to mirror those of other countries. If Elbonia imposes an average 20% tariff on goods exported to it, impose a 20% tariff on imports from Elbonia.

Why should let other countries decide our tariff policy? If we believe that having lower tariffs is better, say having low tariffs with developing countries, while they have a bit higher ones to build up nascent industies, why should we quash it?

	27-01-2004 10:23									#83
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short term

1 anti abortion
2 minimum wage raised to 12 or so (and this moves so as to stay with the cost of living)
3 increase research budgets (double or triple)
4 increase taxes on wealthy
5 abolish multinational corporations
6 decrease taxes on poor
7 make simple food and the like (neccesary for survival) free
8 remove tax breaks for companies
9 began managing the important parts of the environment (Kyoto was stupid, however, we really need to do something about our water)
10 decriminalize pot (not legalize it, decriminalize it)
11 free healthcare for all
12 more worker rights
13 no discrimination (means no AA)
14 legalize homosexual unions
15 make all schooling free
16 make it so that it is easy for anyone to run for office
17 fix up afganistan and iraq (don't leave until they are stable, prop up the government that takes over after us)
18 end corporate subsidies
19 introduce wealth tax (this is not a tax on things like houses and the like, rather it is a tax on things like money in the bank or money in stocks and bonds)
20 allow open immigration into the country as long as immigrants show that they are being productive members of society (wether you are allowed to stay in depends on your productivity, if you are productive for say 10 years, than you will become a citizen and get all benifits of being one)
21 increase difficulty of school, make it so that there is a real risk of failure and that C is really an average command of the material
22 add in more vocational schooling opportunities (you learn while you work and get payed)
23 support of worker owned cooperatives (with tax incentives and the like)
24 two prison systems, one for violent felons and the other for softer criminals (drugs, white collar), the lighter one would have the prisoners work for the government (and give education opportunities)
25 decrease taxes for families and give them more support
26 invest more in mass transit, increase taxes on gas and the like, increase taxes on alcohol and tobacco

probably is more....

Jon Miller

	27-01-2004 10:27									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Al'Kimiya 1) Strict obedience of the sabbath day (that saturday, you heretics).

I agree that it is Saturday, and that it is important. But I feel that that is something that people should decide for themselves, and deal with themselves, and the government should not be involved.

Jon Miller

	27-01-2004 10:47									#85
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quote: 5 abolish multinational corporations

you would achieve THAT exactly how?

	27-01-2004 11:26									#86
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quote: 20 allow open immigration into the country as long as immigrants show that they are being productive members of society (wether you are allowed to stay in depends on your productivity, if you are productive for say 10 years, than you will become a citizen and get all benifits of being one)

Western society's population growth comes almost solely from immigration. I would love to lower the bar, so to speak, but I don't like the notion of productivity? How would you define such a squishy term?

	27-01-2004 12:02									#87
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There's only one plank for my political party:

1) Institute a modernized version of the ancient Athenian Ostracism process. The basic principle would remain the same - every year there'd be a general election by secret ballot and whoever got "X" million votes would be evicted from the country for ten years. No appeal. Just pack your bags and go. The chief executive would probably have to be immune during his term of office, and perhaps a few others. We'd need to ensure the country is still governed normally, while guaranteeing good behaviour by ensuring that immunity ends when the officeholder steps down.

At first it would look pretty chaotic, since each party would try to rally the faithful to banish the leaders of the other side, but pretty soon everyone playing that game would be gone (prime targets for the other side, obviously). One of the key features of this rule is that it applies equally to EVERYONE - so all the hardline, no compromise cheerleaders in the media and Hollywood would be ridin' on out of town as well. Eventually a few bright bulbs would realize that antagonising the oppostion is truly a no-win proposition. And on that day, a truly different style of politics would be born.

You want civility in public discourse? Respect toward your opponents? A reasoned approach to thorny problems? This process - and no other - would get us there within a few years.

	27-01-2004 12:08									#88
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would not allow the multinationals to operate within the US

productivity would mean that they would have to be employed full time, ignoring certain excusing factors

Jon Miller

	27-01-2004 12:41									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I agree that it is Saturday, and that it is important. But I feel that that is something that people should decide for themselves, and deal with themselves, and the government should not be involved. Jon Miller

This is imho a naive way of dealing with people. People obviously doesn't make very good choices for themselves, as is seen by the numerous occasions of civil disorder (bestiality, gambling addiction, freeloading etc). Strict guidelines is a must for a working society. Be it the sabbath day or something else. A herd in disarray is a competetive disadvantage.

	27-01-2004 13:53									#90
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So for those of you who are against abortion, would you allow abortions for women who become pregnant after being raped, or when a pregnancy puts the mother's life at risk, or if the fetus is so severely deformed that it will die at birth?

Just asking.