25-01-2004 11:05									#1
	Utter newbie questions about 'Big Picture' Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Hi,
Imagine my surprise (and delight!) when I checked back on the CTP2 forum for the first time in over a year to see the source code released and public-spirited individuals improving the game - top stuff

The following are very general questions about the future of this venture ie once bugs/balancing etc. have been dealt with based on some of my meta-concerns with the game - any answers would be appreciated, regardless of how speculative!

1) Is the interface going to be looked at and made more user-friendly?

2) Out of all the TBS games I've played, the CTP series is the one where I've felt that my actions have the least consequence, mainly due to actions (eg clerics doing speical actions) not being explained in game terms - 'You have gained x number of y' etc. Maybe it's just me, but I like to see figures for things, and little graphs and spreadsheets detailing exactly how everything I do influences my empire.

3) Diplomacy seems far more fundamentally flawed to me than can be remedied by altering AI parameters due to one overriding problem - I never know why the ai agrees (or more often disagrees) with what I propose. So many times I've offered a ridiculously attractive package to someone and been told it's rejected with no further clarification which leaves me thrashing about in the dark rather. Not to mention the completely unappealing aesthetic of having a poorly drawn little portrait state 'accepted', 'denied', or 'war' at me rather than using more interesting language (compare this with SMAC for example). Is this an area that is of concern to anyone?

4) Will existing mods be incorporated into the main game, I mean some of the less far-reaching ones, like the city-mod? How would larger cradle-type mods be implemented - as mods, as standard, as options in the setup?

5) Having read through the posts it's good to see a prime concern is how to stop players running away with the game. Has the idea of civilizations splitting been discussed? Not just the odd city but a much larger scale disintegration of an empire? I guess what I'm getting at is do people think it's possible (or desirable) to somehow simulate the rise and fall, rather than the rise and rise of civilizations?

6) Is there any consensus on having more unique civs - either by special units, 'heroes', ai personality, or special civ-specific abilities?
Personally I think it would be a neat option if you could have civs mirroring their real life strategies eg vikings prioritise seafaring and raids, romans will try to build a vast organised empire etc. - maybe this is too restrictive though.
At the moment I just don't really feel like I'm playing against a diverse bunch of civilizations, although this may be more an aesthetic than gameplay issue.

7) Are there any plans for any sort of scenario-creator? Eg making it quick and simple for computer-illiterates to redesign tech trees, graphics etc.?

8) Just how far is it possible to go here in creating the 'ultimate' TBS game? Is imagination the only limit, or are there fundamental road-blocks which mean features of the perfect game (graphics excluded) will inevitably have to be dropped?

9) Any thoughts on more accurately mapping environmental damage pre industrial revolution? I'm thinking mainly of deforestation here. Forests seem to remain pretty constant in all TBS games which seems a little odd - maybe something along the lines of having many more forested areas at the start of the game so you HAVE to remove them in order to get enough food, as well as giving hefty one-time production bonuses for removing forest tiles (and making them less productive if they are just worked as normal). This should hopefully map the gradual removal of trees from inhabited areas (and associated future problems along similar lines to existing pollution-checks)

10) 'Free captured leader' really should be an option for spies (just because it was cool in Alpha Centauri). Canals and land-bridges are similar non-essential but damn cool concepts - do those sifting through source code have time for idle speculation about more whimsical features like these?

Again, kudos to all those actually taking steps to implement this, and sorry if this sounded like an ungrateful list of demands - but who can fail to get excited about what kind of CTP2 we'll be playing a couple of years down the line?

	25-01-2004 17:48									#2
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Let me start by saying that the work has just begun, and so far there's no implementation of new feautures under way, it's just the bugs being fixed. Everyone currently has his own vision as to what will CtP2 look like, but there's no agreement yet on the exact form of it in the future. However, the emphasis will be made on making the modding tools even more powerful, so that people can make more advanced mods - there won't be many mod-like changes.

As for your questions.

quote: 1) Is the interface going to be looked at and made more user-friendly?

There will probably be some changes. Check this for an idea of what the new City Manager screen could look like, for instance.

quote: 2) Out of all the TBS games I've played, the CTP series is the one where I've felt that my actions have the least consequence, mainly due to actions (eg clerics doing speical actions) not being explained in game terms - 'You have gained x number of y' etc. Maybe it's just me, but I like to see figures for things, and little graphs and spreadsheets detailing exactly how everything I do influences my empire.

That's a pretty common request, and there probably wil be some way to see the exact numbers behind your conversions, franchises, etc. The inability to see the exact effects of your actions has annoyed many players, myself included.

quote: Diplomacy seems far more fundamentally flawed to me than can be remedied by altering AI parameters due to one overriding problem - I never know why the ai agrees (or more often disagrees) with what I propose [...] Not to mention the completely unappealing aesthetic of having a poorly drawn little portrait state 'accepted', 'denied', or 'war' at me rather than using more interesting language (compare this with SMAC for example). Is this an area that is of concern to anyone?

Yes, there are problems with both the diplomanager and the way AI handles diplomacy. Check this thread for some talk on changing the diplomanager. As for the diplomacy handling by the AI, we of course hope to improve that eventually as well, but it's a pretty complex piece of coding.

quote: Will existing mods be incorporated into the main game, I mean some of the less far-reaching ones, like the city-mod? How would larger cradle-type mods be implemented - as mods, as standard, as options in the setup?

We are currently debating about making some balance changes in the 'baseline Apolyton version', as we call it, that could deal with city and tile improvements, mainly. However, we rather want to have better mod support and allow players to choose whatever mod they want.

quote: Having read through the posts it's good to see a prime concern is how to stop players running away with the game. Has the idea of civilizations splitting been discussed? Not just the odd city but a much larger scale disintegration of an empire? I guess what I'm getting at is do people think it's possible (or desirable) to somehow simulate the rise and fall, rather than the rise and rise of civilizations?

The rise and fall of civs is probably a concept that deserves its own thread. I'll just say that there really are many ideas discussed about making the game more even.

quote: Is there any consensus on having more unique civs - either by special units, 'heroes', ai personality, or special civ-specific abilities? [...] At the moment I just don't really feel like I'm playing against a diverse bunch of civilizations [...]

This is the kind of change we don't implement through modifying the source. We'd rather create a working sprite editor, for instance, or somehow in another way better support for creating additional units, and let them be added through mods.

quote: Are there any plans for any sort of scenario-creator? Eg making it quick and simple for computer-illiterates to redesign tech trees, graphics etc.?

One of the ideas is, of course, to make mod and scenario creation easy and good. The existing scenario editor does definitely need an overhaul anyway.

quote: Just how far is it possible to go here in creating the 'ultimate' TBS game? Is imagination the only limit, or are there fundamental road-blocks which mean features of the perfect game (graphics excluded) will inevitably have to be dropped?

You can always wish for somehing better, and everyone has his own ideas on what would make the perfect TBS game. Personally, I'm quite sure that, given time, CtP2 can evolve into the best game of civ-genre. It would already earn the overall best award from me, but I still play other civ games, too. CtP2 currently has a few too many problems for being the perfect game.

quote: Any thoughts on more accurately mapping environmental damage pre industrial revolution? I'm thinking mainly of deforestation here. Forests seem to remain pretty constant in all TBS games which seems a little odd - maybe something along the lines of having many more forested areas at the start of the game so you HAVE to remove them in order to get enough food, as well as giving hefty one-time production bonuses for removing forest tiles (and making them less productive if they are just worked as normal). This should hopefully map the gradual removal of trees from inhabited areas (and associated future problems along similar lines to existing pollution-checks)

An interesting idea, and I believe it's a pretty new one. At least I can't remember anything like it being discussed before, not in much detail at least.

quote: 'Free captured leader' really should be an option for spies (just because it was cool in Alpha Centauri). Canals and land-bridges are similar non-essential but damn cool concepts - do those sifting through source code have time for idle speculation about more whimsical features like these?

Again, these are subjective desires that some may like and others may not. I think that something like freeing a leader could be implemented with relative ease, but I don't really think that it belongs in CtP2, as eliminating a civ symbolizes, well, eliminating a civ completely, with its culture, people, etc. being either assimilated or destroyed, not merely the leader detained somewhere as in SMAC.

	26-01-2004 03:54									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Thanks for the quick response.

What with Civ4 in all likelihood being an RTS frag-fest or something, this project really seems the only hope for anyone hoping for a non sci-fi/fantasy TBS game in the forseeable future.

	28-01-2004 08:00									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: but I don't really think that it belongs in CtP2, as eliminating a civ symbolizes, well, eliminating a civ completely, with its culture, people, etc. being either assimilated or destroyed, not merely the leader detained somewhere as in SMAC.

I disagree, diversity and realism is huge! key aspect of any civ game (well sid meir seems to think otherwise nowadays but anyway)
Throughout history it has been known that important people such as great leaders etc have been held captive rather than just mindlessly slaughtered.

-Held to ransom for money
-Held for interegation by the enemy to gain vital information (of which could be discussed) in which time spies have the ability to attempt to free the captive

these are just 2 of the ways in which i can think it would be a great feature

but as you say Solver, everyone has there own opinion on what makes and doesnt make a great TBS game (or game in general for that matter)