29-01-2004 12:11									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Monk She's not a virgin, she's in a sexual relationship with another woman. She's lost her virginity already and the fact she's an out-of-the-closet lesbian does suggest she's been doing a good deal of personal reflections on her sexuality. I don't think her age is that significant either as long as she's an adult. Naturally though, as I don't know her personally, these are all just assumptions on my part. How'bout we throw a surprise party for Ben Kenobi? We'll need a variety of drugs and fallen women.

the real question is if she has been penetrated by a dildo or penis shaped object.

I would hope no man is stupid enough to pay for that.

	29-01-2004 12:15									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Monk She's not a virgin, she's in a sexual relationship with another woman. She's lost her virginity already and the fact she's an out-of-the-closet lesbian does suggest she's been doing a good deal of personal reflections on her sexuality.

I agree.

This whole, "just because I haven't had a penis inside me makes me a virgin" thing is BS. She's had intimate relations with other women so she is no virgin.

I'm sure there have been a few Tornado Tongues up in that mad cooter.

	29-01-2004 13:37									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident the real question is if she has been penetrated by a dildo or penis shaped object. I would hope no man is stupid enough to pay for that.

As Ted points out, that's not really important. If we insist on using the term at all, we'd have to define "virgin" as "somebody who hasn't engaged in intercourse" rather than making it a matter of penetration.

	29-01-2004 13:39									#154
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well supposedly there is some way doctors can tell if a woman is a virgin. I think it involves the hymen or something like that.

Okay I admit I don't know **** about the female body . Women never teach me. They expect me to know everything about them already.

	29-01-2004 15:16									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Okay I admit I don't know **** about the female body . Women never teach me. They expect me to know everything about them already.

	29-01-2004 16:48									#156
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quote: Flip: I don't see the point. Why should life be hard? If we can make it easy for everyone, why not? Where does your logic end? To the point children should be unfed so that they learn 'true' life (which anyway can be as 'true' as we wish it to be).

Oncle:
Ok can I say within reason and just leave it at that. I'm far too tired to argue this one through. (18 hours sleep over four days. Which isn't too bad I suppose but then I work 9-10hour days aswell so I'm f***ed. But I'm not working tomorrow so I get to sleep in, YAY! Ok I'm gonna stop spamming now I suppose.) So please can it stay at within reason?

	29-01-2004 18:04									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I would NOT hit it.

I don't think I've ever seen that from Ted I mean, she's not great, but she's better than Coulter.

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker This whole, "just because I haven't had a penis inside me makes me a virgin" thing is BS. She's had intimate relations with other women so she is no virgin. I'm sure there have been a few Tornado Tongues up in that mad cooter.

She is a virgin. If a girl were to have intimate relations with a man, that did not involve penetrative sex, then she is still a virgin. This girl has had intimate relations with a women, that did not involve penetrative sex. Therefore she is a virgin. Sex is the act of sexual intercourse, not the foreplay/sexplay that leads up to it, or takes its place.

In some dictionaries I've seen a virgin is a girl with an unbroken hymen. However that is little used now, since:
a) it cannot relate to men and
b) the hymen can be broken by anything from a tampon and fingers to horsebackriding.

I'll admit, she's not the innocent, unexperienced person that the word virgin conjures up images of, but that isn't what the word means, it just happens to be usually correct. I wasn't innocent or unexperienced at times while a virgin, but the fact I hadn't had penetrative sex made me a virgin, whatever else I'd done.

	29-01-2004 18:42									#158
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By "virgin" I meant specifically that when and if she has sex with a man, it is probably going to HURT, and therefore be rather traumatic, especially as she will not be the slightest bit wet (in layman's terms, no pun intended). Not that she is pure as snow or something.

	29-01-2004 18:47									#159
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Not sure I agree.

The fact that the consumation of a lesbian relationship is achieved a bit differently from the consumation of a heterosexual relationship does not seem to me to be the key point.

At least if it were so then the term would be being used somewhat pedantically.

I would certainly not call a homosexual male who had consumated affairs with dozens of other men a virgin just because he had never engaged in penetrative sex with a woman. And I cannot see why the difference in sexual behaviour involved in lesbian affairs changes that.

I pose, as the definition of a "virgin" someone who has never consumated a sexual relationship - whether with someone of the same sex or the opposite sex.

	29-01-2004 18:47									#160
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I'm amazed any undergraduate thinks virginity is worth that much money. I've been offered them for much less (I never pursued the offer).

Still, at least if this one does not get her degree, she has a fine career ahead of her in the publicist sector.

	29-01-2004 19:59									#161
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Anyone here ever made love to a lesbian? It just strikes me that it would be a very unsatisfactory experience.

	29-01-2004 20:08									#162
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quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader Not sure I agree. The fact that the consumation of a lesbian relationship is achieved a bit differently from the consumation of a heterosexual relationship does not seem to me to be the key point. At least if it were so then the term would be being used somewhat pedantically. I would certainly not call a homosexual male who had consumated affairs with dozens of other men a virgin just because he had never engaged in penetrative sex with a woman. And I cannot see why the difference in sexual behaviour involved in lesbian affairs changes that. I pose, as the definition of a "virgin" someone who has never consumated a sexual relationship - whether with someone of the same sex or the opposite sex.

So, a man that goes down on a woman can still be a virgin, but a woman that goes down on a man is not a virgin? How does that work? How do you "consumate" a sexual relationship? What classes as that for you?

IMHO, you must have the same standards for virginity regardless of sexual orientation. What would happen in the case of a bisexual person, who has done everything but sex with a man, but has not gone that far with a woman? She is a virgin by standards with a man (she has not consumated their relationship) and by the standards with a women (the relationship not being sexual) yet if she had done those same actions the other way round, she would not be a virgin, because it counts as consumation with a girl, but not with a man?

You could argue that homosexual male sex counts as consumation, as long as you said that it also counted as consumation if a man did that to a woman.

The fact she is a lesbian does not change the criteria for being, or not being, a virgin. If a virgin is someone who has gone down on another person, or vice versa, then that goes for heterosexual relationships too. However that is not the case. A straight man or woman that has not had penetrative sex is a virgin. I don't see why that changes because of sexual orientation. The acts leading up to it, do not constitute a loss of virginity in a heterosexual relationship, so I don't see why they should in a homosexual relationship.

	29-01-2004 20:10									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Anyone here ever made love to a lesbian? It just strikes me that it would be a very unsatisfactory experience.

No, unless you use ESTs definition of sex, including other things besides penetrative sex, in which case yes.

	29-01-2004 20:11									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Elok By "virgin" I meant specifically that when and if she has sex with a man, it is probably going to HURT, and therefore be rather traumatic, especially as she will not be the slightest bit wet (in layman's terms, no pun intended). Not that she is pure as snow or something.

If she has a broken hymen (very likely) then I doubt it will be *that* painful. Sure, she will be tight, but then, that's not the main reason that sex for the first time is painful. If she has been active as a lesbian for a time, the chances are she has broken her hymen. And she could just use lube.

	29-01-2004 23:29									#165
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Well, I'm just saying that, to my imagination at least, a tongue and a wang approach that particular orifice at very different velocities, and with very different attitudes. I haven't done scientific research with porn tapes or anything, it's just guesswork on my part. The way she talks about it, it sounds like she's expecting another woman with a prosthetic wooden tongue or something.

It doesn't help that she's advertising on the internet, because, with no offense meant to anyone present, this medium brings out the zaniest in a lot of people. Witness, ah, "Stefu's Disorder," only some people aren't joking when they talk about it. For ten thousand pounds, she's likely to get some weirdo who's always fantasized about screwing a lesbian, three little boys and a koala all at once or something. Only a fetish would lure that kind of money, I think.

Okay, this conversation has gone beyond creepy. What I won't do to win an argument...

	29-01-2004 23:42									#166
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I read somewhere a while ago that loads of girls in the US are currently getting paid for sex to put themsleves through college. It would appear this is simply a case of us Brits finally getting with the times....

	30-01-2004 01:11									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Elok For ten thousand pounds, she's likely to get some weirdo who's always fantasized about screwing a lesbian, three little boys and a koala all at once or something. Only a fetish would lure that kind of money, I think.

All that does sound kind of interesting, though.

	30-01-2004 01:48									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Monk All that does sound kind of interesting, though.

Case in point.

	30-01-2004 03:22									#169
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Or just someone with a lot of money. If £10k is nothing to you, then it may just be he thinks she's nice and fancies a bit.

	30-01-2004 04:22									#170
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Whoever it is can get far cheaper hookers outside of Kings Cross, and they can be virgins, or anything he wants them to be

	30-01-2004 10:13									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue So, a man that goes down on a woman can still be a virgin, but a woman that goes down on a man is not a virgin? How does that work? How do you "consumate" a sexual relationship? What classes as that for you?

If you mean by "go down" oral sex, any person who have had only oral sex can probably be considered a virgin. I cannot see Rosy (the woman in question) has only engaged in oral sex with her lesbian partner.

	30-01-2004 15:13									#172
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UR: What would you consider to be that is going further than oral sex, but not as far as penetrative sex? If a man were to do that to a women, would that women still be a virgin? Would that man still be a virgin? What I'm saying is that anything that two girls do together, if it removes their virginity, would also remove the virginity of a guy and a girl, to be consistent. However a heterosexual couple only lose their virginities by penetrative sex. If they were to use dildos or vibrators, that would not be losing their virginity.

Indeed, is it possible to lose your virginity while you're partner remains a virgin?

	30-01-2004 16:22									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Anyone here ever made love to a lesbian? It just strikes me that it would be a very unsatisfactory experience.

Well an ex-lesbian. It was very good, almost a religious experience.

	30-01-2004 16:48									#174
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Do you think that was because of her lesbianism, or because she was just good?

	30-01-2004 18:10									#175
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Most people with that kind of money to burn prefer to sexually abuse schoolgirls for free, Drogue. They didn't get rich by paying for that sort of privilege. Jeez.

	30-01-2004 18:19									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Do you think that was because of her lesbianism, or because she was just good?

I have a more elaborate theory. She was molested as a child (by a man). Because of this she was a sex monster during her childhood (acting out). The reaction to this was extremely negative (slut!), but had the good effect of exposing the abuse. She has a lot of anger and fear toward men in the aftermath of this stuff and becomes a lesbian, as everyone needs love and she can't abide the thought of getting it from a man.

She deals with her fears over time and becomes very good friends with a guy in college (Sik) who has done a lot of youth counseling, much of it on this very issue. She begins to trust him and he understands her. They develop feelings for one another but are afraid to broach the subject for fear of giving offense, until one night when all the planets are aligned just so (ovulation). Because their feelings for one another have built up beyond the point where others would have already shagged, and because the experience is so unexpected (for Sik) and novel (for her) and because both of them prefer a more tantric style of lovemaking the energy unleashed is unreal.

	30-01-2004 22:52									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander I have a more elaborate theory. She was molested as a child (by a man). Because of this she was a sex monster during her childhood (acting out). The reaction to this was extremely negative (slut!), but had the good effect of exposing the abuse. She has a lot of anger and fear toward men in the aftermath of this stuff and becomes a lesbian, as everyone needs love and she can't abide the thought of getting it from a man. She deals with her fears over time and becomes very good friends with a guy in college (Sik) who has done a lot of youth counseling, much of it on this very issue. She begins to trust him and he understands her. They develop feelings for one another but are afraid to broach the subject for fear of giving offense, until one night when all the planets are aligned just so (ovulation). Because their feelings for one another have built up beyond the point where others would have already shagged, and because the experience is so unexpected (for Sik) and novel (for her) and because both of them prefer a more tantric style of lovemaking the energy unleashed is unreal.

Aww, what a sweet little tale. Makes me go all warm and fuzzy just thinking about it

	31-01-2004 01:03									#178
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You can keep your warm'n'fuzzies to yourself, thank you.

	31-01-2004 05:03									#179
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well dont say i didnt offer

	31-01-2004 05:52									#180
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still no link?