26-01-2004 22:31									#1
	SGL's are unbalancing Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In the Middle Ages conquest, playing as the Byzantines (who aren't Scientific in that, but religious, which is annoying because there's no government change), I've gotten 2 SGL's. The first one probably changed the course of the entire game for me - I decided to research Western Church, which gave me access to the Holy Roman Empire wonder. Normally I would've had no chance at this, but of course I got it with the SGL. The Holy Roman Empire give 2 free techs, better chance at leaders, and 4-size armies. That, in turn, gave me the Viking and Arab techs. Now, in the High Middle Ages, I have a several-tech lead and ALL OF THE OPTIONAL TECHS except for Defender of Europe and Intelligence Operations (both Byzantine techs). I'm saving the other SGL for Magna Carta. I don't know if it's just the power of Holy Roman Empire, but I think SGL's are too random to be balanced - especially given the tiny difference between the probability for Scientific civs and non-Scientific ones.

	26-01-2004 22:39									#2
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Skywalker, In that instance, you may be right. However, SGL's are random and there's no guarantee that you'd get one. Even if you hadn't gotten an SGL, you'd probably still be ahead of all the AI's (perhaps by not as much).

It sounds more like the Wonder is VERY strong. That coupled w/ your building it via SGL could be an 'unbalanced combo', but I don't think that either by themselves would be too unbalanced.

I just hate to declare them 'unbalanced' for fear that they'd be removed or something. And I have yet to even see one in my games, epic/conquest or otherwise.

Steven

BTW, on your success w/ that scenario. I'm envious.

	26-01-2004 22:52									#3
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I get this mental picture of a French knight throwing a red flag and screaming "time out" at which point God comes jogging out of a cloud.

"Longbows are unbalancing and give the English too much of an advantage", says the French knight.

God reviews the play and concludes that the longbowmen had both feet in bounds. "The play stands!", says He.

The French continue to be slaughtered, which is of course, historically accurate gaming.

By God.

	26-01-2004 23:40									#4
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Awesome, JT!

	26-01-2004 23:54									#5
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One amazingly helpful use of SGL's shouldn't qualify them as unbalancing. They are certainly a damn sight better than when MGLs could rush wonders. With enough elites you could intentionally generate five or six per turn. In the early Middle Ages that could get you some awesome wonders right away.

The only unbalanced part about them is that once you have a clear tech lead you are likely to be the only player with a chance to generate one. But, once you are the clear tech leader the game is over anyhow...


Nice scenario work, by the way.

	27-01-2004 00:23									#6
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They seem ot be rare enough not to be imbalancing...as a scientific civ in one game I was the first to research almost all of the ancient techs, all of the middle ages, and the beginning of the industrial techs and only got one of them!

	27-01-2004 00:32									#7
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On the other hand, as the Byzantines, I got 1 SGL for Philosophy and 1 for the free tech (Republic) from Philosophy

Game over

	27-01-2004 03:17									#8
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They are rather rare, so they are not a big issue over all. They are going to make a big impact if they come at the right time or wrong time for the others.

	27-01-2004 03:40									#9
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quote: Originally posted by steven8r Skywalker, In that instance, you may be right. However, SGL's are random and there's no guarantee that you'd get one. Even if you hadn't gotten an SGL, you'd probably still be ahead of all the AI's (perhaps by not as much). It sounds more like the Wonder is VERY strong. That coupled w/ your building it via SGL could be an 'unbalanced combo', but I don't think that either by themselves would be too unbalanced. I just hate to declare them 'unbalanced' for fear that they'd be removed or something. And I have yet to even see one in my games, epic/conquest or otherwise. Steven BTW, on your success w/ that scenario. I'm envious.

I wouldn't have been able to build it, had I not had an SGL. I was probably 20 turns behind on it, because the other civs building it started with Western Church.

	27-01-2004 03:42									#10
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quote: Originally posted by civman2000 They seem ot be rare enough not to be imbalancing...as a scientific civ in one game I was the first to research almost all of the ancient techs, all of the middle ages, and the beginning of the industrial techs and only got one of them!

The rareness is what makes them unbalancing - that and that the probability isn't much different for Scientific civs. It is an ENORMOUS help, and is even more luck-of-the-draw than Ivory.

btw, I do consider them better than when it was MGL's, though.

	27-01-2004 03:45									#11
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I thought of this when I beat the Mesopotamia scenario just now. I was watching the leaderheads saying their little blurbs on the victory screen and suddenly Agamemnon says "Luck... it was all luck..." I found this amusing, because I'd gotten 2 SGL's as Sumeria which I used on ToA and the Lighthouse. (Ironically, I won by a Victory Point Victory, not a Wonder Victory - the seventh wonder gave me enough VP's to win.)

	27-01-2004 13:07									#12
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick I get this mental picture of a French knight throwing a red flag and screaming "time out" at which point God comes jogging out of a cloud. "Longbows are unbalancing and give the English too much of an advantage", says the French knight. God reviews the play and concludes that the longbowmen had both feet in bounds. "The play stands!", says He. The French continue to be slaughtered, which is of course, historically accurate gaming. By God.

I was watching "Battlefield Detectives" on Discovery last night that presented evidence to suggest that the heroic English victory at Agincourt was almost certainly due to overcrowding on the French side that basically caused a "crowd disaster", as we see today in football stadiums and train statioins. In other words, many of the French squashed each other to death and brave King Henry V slaughtered the rest in cold blood while they were lying crushed.

Perhaps there should be limits to Civ3 stacks of doom....or a message might pop up saying "your swordsmen were slaughtered because there wasn't enough space for them to lift their swords"

	27-01-2004 13:21									#13
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SGLs can be imbalancing, but they are so random, that you can't rely on it. In one game I (playing the agricultural Dutch) got a SGL when I discovered Writing in the mid-2000BC's. Instant Pyramids + agricultural + lots of rivers = Game over. But that happens only on rare occasions. You could get lucky in previous versions too, making a (M)GL with your very first elite archer.

	27-01-2004 13:43									#14
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if you find them too unbalancing...

...don't use them.

	27-01-2004 18:50									#15
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I think this system is better than when MGLs could rush everything

	27-01-2004 21:49									#16
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Talk about unbalanced (not) I got my only SGL in my current game from Robotics, is that funny or what.

I was first to all Modern tech , all non optional techs in Industrial
and I don't know how many in the previous age.

This is common for me, only rarely do I get one beofre industrial age. If I do I am tempted to abandon the game and declare victory.
The only issue is that when I used the ancient age SGL for Pyramids, it will likely trigger a GA.

	28-01-2004 01:04									#17
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I've been in the tech lead the whole game in my most recent game, haven't seen an SGL yet. If I get one now, I'll just use it to boost my research, as no one else can build any of the wonders.

	28-01-2004 01:50									#18
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I just got an SGL with writing! Booyah. I think I'll build Zeus.

This is the second game out of my last oh 4 I think that I've gotten such an early sgl. the other one I used on the pyramids.

	28-01-2004 02:29									#19
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Are you plating a Science civ?

	28-01-2004 02:30									#20
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Are you plating a Science civ?

nope one was as the frenchies, this current one was as the indians.

	28-01-2004 03:21									#21
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I've just gotten 1 myself in the epic game. (Not a scientific civ though)
I basically earned one late in the industrial era with a few turns left in my peaceful GA from building Hoover Dam [I'm playing the Mayas]. I just sat on the SGL until entering the modern era and picked computers and used him on SETI. I was already significantly ahead in the AI when I built Hoovers so it's primarly effect is speeding up when I reach the tech to lauch the space ship.

	28-01-2004 03:56									#22
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Are you plating a Science civ?

I never can really tell a difference - the probability really only varies over lots of games. In one game a Scientific civ won't likely have much more luck with SGL's than a nonscientific one.

	28-01-2004 04:33									#23
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The only time I have had more than one (3) was as a SCI civ. The boost is small but, it is still almost twice a non SCI.

	28-01-2004 06:39									#24
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I've found them 'unbalancing', so to speak, but since they're so random you can't really call it unbalancing. I got two in the mesopotamia conquest, giving me the collossus and ToA (basically winning the scenario for me), and I've gotten a few in other games too. But I've NEVER gotten a MGL, despite the number of elite victories I've had.

	28-01-2004 06:54									#25
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I think their more balance than MGLs since anyone can get an SGL when they research a tech first. MGLs are only available to a player conqurering someone else which would mean they most likely already had a military advantage.

	28-01-2004 07:08									#26
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Well, in all of my games I have only received ONE SGL (in a SP game). So I have no insight into the SGLs being unbalancing or not.

	28-01-2004 07:27									#27
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In the AoD scenario I got three on my first three techs when playing as Portugal.

	28-01-2004 09:03									#28
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Switch you have had no MGL's? That is astonishing. I never had less than 4 in a full game.
My last one I only had two wars and got 8.

	29-01-2004 03:53									#29
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I'm playing Monarch, C3C, mid-size continents, 8 civs.

I've generated 3 SGLs this game. Used them on Knights Templar, JSBach and Theory of Evolution. The latter put me in line for the Hoover Dam well before I was expecting it.

I tried another game where I used the SGL for the increased science output. I think it is better to use on wonders.

Does Heroic Epic help with SGL chances?

	29-01-2004 04:04									#30
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I think the general view is that, in most cases, using SGL's for accelerated science is a waste, especially since you can have more than one at once. I'm sure there are specific situations where the faster research rate would be helpful, but generally you're better off with the Wonder.

To answer your question, heroic epic has no affect on your SGL chances. Being scientific, however, does increase the likelihood that you'll get one.