28-01-2004 12:32									#1
	GWT's Advance Remove this text

Miccofl informed me in chat today that GWT has begun its advance southward from Sudspitze. They are advancing with 21 MIs, 1 Ansar, 12 Pikes, 5 Catapults and 3 Workers (38 total combat units).

He also told me that CGN has 18 Knights, 15 MIs and ~20 Pikes (53 total combat units) in the area to deal with them, so they're pretty confident about beating back this initial force.

What he's concerned about is the fact that the 3 Workers may in fact be building a road to allow reserve Ansar in Sudspitze to attack the front from there. Things could get quite messy. I told miccofl that we would be willing to investigate GWT cities (Sudspitze in particular) to see what GWT has cooking. He said he'd take it back to the team to discuss.

CGN is currently deciding how to approach this situation. The currently favored plan is to strike out with their 18 Knights from one of their cities to attack and kill the GWT Pikes, leaving the GWT stack vulnerable to futher attack. However, they are also looking at sticking out an attack, then killing the Pikes and wiping out wounded GWT MIs with their own.

CGN can research Gunpowder in 4 or 5 turns once we get them Invention, allowing them to get Muskets fairly soon.

The real fireworks will no doubt begin soon...

	28-01-2004 12:40									#2
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one ansar, eh? sounds like, to me anyway, that they're waiting on their golden age to finish leo's and mass upgrade their horses. And that's a lot of protection to get that one ansar the victory. (well, and to build that road). Sounds like they're right about that being an ansar road to the south. Scary stuff. I wonder how many horses they have...

	28-01-2004 12:43									#3
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* Master Zen takes out his box of popcorn.

Let the games begin


I think that even with a stack of Ansars, the odds favor CGN at this moment (the GWT GA might give them a larger impetus in the near future). Unlike our PTWDG war, the war front leaves very little room for maneouvre, rendering the 3-move of the Ansars worthless for any major flanking or surprise movmenents.

To be honest, I do not see how GWT can achieve a smashing victory with such limitating geography. Perhaps their objective is merely to take all land on "their side" and leave a full invasion for later on or simply hole up in preparation for a Sipahi assualt.

	28-01-2004 13:40									#4
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Also unlike the PTWDG War, CGN is up against only ONE equivalently sized enemy with a 3-move knight UU and CGN has chivalry themselves and knights already in the field!

They aren't going to lose half their productive cities before their ally who actually has knights can ship them over from another continent to help protect them.

The one thing CGN does not seem to have is CATAPULTS. I sure as hell hope miccofl just happened to leave out the cat tally when telling Trip what they had near the frontlines.... if not, would it hurt too much for us to tell them to build cats, more cats, and more cats past that? I mean... seriously... how could they know they were going to fight wars with huge stacks like that and NOT build catapults?

If, after they get Gunpowder, they have musketmen paired with catapults defending spots in the chokepoint region, it isn't going to matter of GWT has Ansar Warriors.... those things only have 4 attack. Worse, they have 2 defense, so if they outstrip their pikemen and catapult defenders, they're toast to CGN's knight force.

Once CGN gets metallurgy and has a chance to field cannons along with their musketmen, any attack with ANSAR WARRIORS is going to be pitiful by comparison. If CGN gets Sipahi and starts upgrading Knights, GWT is going to be in trouble.

I agree that the 1 Ansar is likely there to get them their GA. Once they have their GA, they're going to want to bee-line for Military Tradition just like CGN is going to do. It seems likely that GWT understands that because CGN, Apolyton, and CFC are trading techs and their tech trading partner is..... GCA.... that they're going to be sunk if they get beat to Military Tradition before they've made a breakthrough in this war.

Last edited by Arnelos on 28-01-2004 at 13:49

	28-01-2004 15:03									#5
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i thot GWT is already in their GA ?

they built Pyramids on Turn 95, and Collosus on Turn 143.

	28-01-2004 15:18									#6
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Um... Arne.... GWT is already halfway through their GA. The reason the GA was brought up was they think that GWT is using it to build Leo's while they are stockpiling money. Once it is built, mass upgrade (I'm betting something on the lines of 60-70 horse they got floating around). They will have a massive spike in the power graph very soon.

	28-01-2004 16:14									#7
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oops. oh yeah

That's what I get for reacting to a comment someone makes at 3 a.m. local time

	28-01-2004 19:22									#8
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Yeah, I was stupid about that GA thing too, I realized after I was laying down my error. clearly the one ansar is for scouting purposes only, and so as not to show the whole hand of GWT. I wonder when the GCA army is going to show up. A great diversion would be for GCA to drop their army (w/one pike) and other pikes and o' units off. Tough to crack a 3 pike army with knights.

	28-01-2004 19:50									#9
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Yeah, I was stupid about that GA thing too, I realized after I was laying down my error. clearly the one ansar is for scouting purposes only, and so as not to show the whole hand of GWT. I wonder when the GCA army is going to show up. A great diversion would be for GCA to drop their army (w/one pike) and other pikes and o' units off. Tough to crack a 3 pike army with knights.

Unless you have enough CATAPULTS!!!

Why on why would CGN not build catapults or is it merely that their catapults have not yet reached the front?

	28-01-2004 20:43									#10
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They definitely need cats. Cities w/o barracks need to be building them, hand over fist.

Hopefully they can destroy that incoming stack and capture the 5 cats in it. That's a start.

-Arrian

	29-01-2004 03:04									#11
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To be honest, I only realised the benefit of catapults when I read about the Vox-GS war.

Even GoW didnt build a lot of catapults...we got ours from GS.

Perhaps it is as simple as they do not know the value of them ?

	29-01-2004 05:45									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel To be honest, I only realised the benefit of catapults when I read about the Vox-GS war. Even GoW didnt build a lot of catapults...we got ours from GS. Perhaps it is as simple as they do not know the value of them ?

This is certainly a possibility...

	29-01-2004 08:14									#13
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That is the real secret of combined arms, having all of the different things that makes them a winning combination.

E_T

	29-01-2004 09:31									#14
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Cats, in a defending stack, make the attacker with a strength of 4 (veterans) more like a strength of 3.5 since the Cats more or les hit 1 out of 2 attackers. It makes your units stronger in comparison to the attackers. That is why they are so effective. It gives you a bonus just as fortifying or being across a river when you are attacked.

If you can't have a pure numbers advantage you better have the advantage of bonuses.

	29-01-2004 12:24									#15
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Cats, in a defending stack, make the attacker with a strength of 4 (veterans) more like a strength of 3.5 since the Cats more or les hit 1 out of 2 attackers. It makes your units stronger in comparison to the attackers. That is why they are so effective. It gives you a bonus just as fortifying or being across a river when you are attacked. If you can't have a pure numbers advantage you better have the advantage of bonuses.

You're preaching to the choir here.

	29-01-2004 12:27									#16
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And we want to disband some of our cats....

E_T

	29-01-2004 13:23									#17
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Cats against mobile units are not a particularly tide-turning unit. If they are used to defend against MI's then they can be devastating, however, against Ansars, the Ansars, thanks to the much lower lossed due to retreat, will win in the end if used in sufficient numbers (compare the results of attacks against cats by Vox vs GS, and those when ND and GoW attacked GS's stacks or Pamplona)

	29-01-2004 13:30									#18
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You have to look at the long run MZ; those were isolated cases. The numbers support that Cats are never a bad investment. A proper balance is what is needed. 1 Cat for every defender or just slightly more because a unit can defend more than once a turn. So, you might say 1 Cat for every assumed attacker.

	29-01-2004 14:06									#19
	Remove this text

That's a lot of cats. There's also an opportunity cost in every cat you build which could be spent on a pike. Thus, the ideal defense is that composed of an efficient mix of cats/pikes.

Against a mobile force with retreat capability, adding more cats to the mix of defenders might not be such a wise idea since the marginal utility of each is considerably lower. Against MI's, they can do wonders.

Thus, the question that begs to be answered is, how many Ansars will GWT bring up?

	29-01-2004 14:56									#20
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Vox never really attacked any positions with cats in them. When GS had cats in a stack, there was no mathematical chance of Vox taking the cats away from us. They were very effective vs Vox because Vox parked their Immortals outside our cities and left them there. The cats then plinged them down so they could be reduced without serious loss to GS.

Give me a choice between an extra pike and a cat in a battle of numbers and I am defending, and I will take the pike any day of the week. Then again, the cat will cost 2/3rds a reg pike from non-barracks cities. Then again, 2 pikes will cost less than 3 cats in unit upkeep.

	29-01-2004 18:17									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Thus, the question that begs to be answered is, how many Ansars will GWT bring up?

Lots on boats, far from the main army. Hitting CGN's weak left side.

E_T

	29-01-2004 22:04									#22
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this is looking like a great feint to me. The workers constructing the roads. the mass of slowmovers. That new second core in Meiertopia, making those cities able to produce galleys...

	30-01-2004 00:25									#23
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In contradiction to what I said in the chat a while back the GWT SMC (Bongo) is actually really good when it comes to millitary strategy, pretty damn good in fact.
GWT are more than likely setting something up.