28-01-2004 19:48									#31
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Hutton totally sidestepped what should have been the focus of the report. Brilliant smokescreen. Government has had an inquiry, none of the real questions addressed, and been found innoccent.

Welcome to British politics!

Sadly you have hit the nail on the head here.

	28-01-2004 19:48									#32
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Oh I see, now the MikeH's of this world now are criticising the inquiry/report, just because it doesn't say what you want it to say.

I said the BBC were more at fault eight months ago, and I stick by that. It's shame you don't even allow yourself to see past your Blair-hatred to change your opinions when your knowledge of the facts change. Instead you now seek the criticise the inquiry for being biased.

	28-01-2004 19:50									#33
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Agathon, I don't think the plagiarised schoolboy stuff was in THIS dossier. That one came along rather later in the Iraq/WMD fiasco.

And as for only a moron believing the intelligence which was included, well I doubt you have been up close to many government ministers to think that is any sort of a point.

I have just sat through Lord Hutton's summary of his report. It was lengthy but the man writes and speaks well so I found it no hardship to do so.

The issues which he decided he was called upon to address seem to me to be the right issues and I found the evidence he cited to support his conclusions compelling.

Last edited by East Street Trader on 28-01-2004 at 19:57

	28-01-2004 20:00									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Oh I see, now the MikeH's of this world now are criticising the inquiry/report, just because it doesn't say what you want it to say. I said the BBC were more at fault eight months ago, and I stick by that. It's shame you don't even allow yourself to see past your Blair-hatred to change your opinions when your knowledge of the facts change. Instead you now seek the criticise the inquiry for being biased.

I believe MikeH has every right to an opinion as you have.

This is allegedly a free hemisphere.
(apart from the self-appointed defenders of decency and authority worship)

The people conducting the inquiry are totally at the beck and call of any pressure or leverage the PM wishes to deploy.

Do you really think Blair is going to sit and let people in his grasp dismantle his reign?

Some reality, please!

If this Dr Kelly can be silenced (and whatever you draw from that word)
for his dissenting view, a Lord in the pay of the government is certainly pliable.

	28-01-2004 20:52									#35
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Despite everything else you've got to admire the BBC for it's objective reporting after the enquiry. A ticker with "Hutton slams BBC" certainly shows your brass balls.

	28-01-2004 21:08									#36
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Yes.

And, for the record, Hutton makes no finding of political bias.

His central criticism focuses on the fact that once the government had challenged the allegation that they had published material knowing that it was false the board of governors subsequently relied upon management as to whether that allegation did indeed have any basis. He says that might be OK in some cases but not this one. And he goes on to say that an examination, by the board, of the reporter's notes would have led them to his own conclusion, namely that this contention cannot be supported from the material Gilligan had obtained.

There is a secondary criticism of the material getting itself published in the first place without anyone having bothered to check exactly what Gilligan was intending to say. He approaches this point from the perspective of a lawyer. It has been publishing routine for many years for a lawyer to be employed to read material which defames (or may defame). He does not point out that under our law defamation does not run against the government (because they are big boys who have press offices and the like perfectly able, in ordinary circumstances, to look after their interests on matters of reputation). But he prefaces his conclusions by pointing out that there is a particular significance in publishing serious allegations impugning good faith. And concludes that it is incumbent on the management of the BBC to have systems in place which give express consideration to the exact words used when such allegations are to be made. So he thinks it naff that Gilligan was left free to say anything he pleased.

It is hard to argue with that.

Especially as Gilligan was such a sloppy guy.

	28-01-2004 21:09									#37
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I don't hate Blair. He's the best leader we've had in my lifetime (not saying much). I just disagree with some of his policies/actions/spin.

	28-01-2004 21:12									#38
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I think BBC deserves a slamming and the problems seem systemic to me. Good journalism is sometimes more boring than "sexed up" journalism, so I can understand why the BBC would sex up their news stories. Also, good journalism is a lot tougher to do than sexing up a story.

	28-01-2004 21:15									#39
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I can see your point about disagreeing about policies; everyone disagrees at some point.

Wrt actions, I don' see what you are getting at here.

And as for "spin", I don't exactly see your problem. All individuals and every political party likes to make their policies and actions sound better than they are. It doesn't take much to see through them. I rather think this whole "spin" accusation is again fed by the BBC with their hard left slant.

Public funding for the BBC should be abolished. Unless it starts to address its inherent biases (and it can start by reinstating Kilroy-Silk), I shall trust it no longer. Maybe it should stay away from politics for a while and focus on the things it actually does best: sport and soaps.

	28-01-2004 21:22									#40
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I'm happy to keep public funding of the BBC purely because it keeps the quality of the broadcasters up as they have to compete with the BBC. What they do best is drama and comedy. Sky totally wipes the floor with them in sports coverage but the BBC do wipe the floor with the other terrestrial channels.

And the BBC only has a hard left bias if you are looking from a hard right perspective. The Guardian has a proper liberal/left perspective the BBC is center (which is to the left of both main political parties).

I do check stories on the web but I don't watch BBC news any more. Channel 4 news is the best. That and Newsround.

That's not to say that it doesn't need a damn good kick in the butt and to reform some of what it does.

	28-01-2004 21:24									#41
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Kilroy shouldn't be reinstated because his program was rubbish.

	28-01-2004 21:30									#42
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Hear hear.

	28-01-2004 21:42									#43
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I am thoroughly disenchanted with all the media.

I have not yet recovered from the BBC including coverage of Mrs Mellor (I think it was her) and her two teenage daughters leaving their front door apparently setting out to do some shopping.

This was "newsworthy" on the basis that these three women were at that time coming to terms with their husband/father's affaire being all over the the press.

I have absolutely no desire to intrude on such people and the thought of them coming out of their front door to face seried ranks of cameramen and reporters is horrid.

I have little sympathy for Dr Kelly but at the point in Hutton's report where Kelly was described as having been thrown to the wolves there is no doubt that the phrase was well used.

For years after Watergate we all thought that we owed a debt to the journalists who showed such persistence in their efforts to investigate. But I long ago concluded they actually did nobody any favours.

Only in local papers reporting on flower shows do you now see simple reportage of facts. In every other branch of the media there is a desire to report from some angle or other which makes governmental desire to impart spin seem like the work of rank amateurs.

	28-01-2004 22:25									#44
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the chair of the BBC is about to resign.

	28-01-2004 22:49									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Good point. I can't remember one inquiry that didn't produce the WANTED result. -Jam

The Strangeways and BSE inquiries.

Strangeways was highly critical of the prisons policies and proposed wide reforms. The government huffed and puffed, sat on it for a couple of years, then ignored it.

	28-01-2004 22:52									#46
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling Some reality, please! If this Dr Kelly can be silenced (and whatever you draw from that word) for his dissenting view, a Lord in the pay of the government is certainly pliable.

Beg pardon? I think the whole point of the Hutton inquiry was that Kelly wasn't silenced. Quite the opposite, in fact.

As for suggestions he was offed? Some reality, please....

	28-01-2004 22:57									#47
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Lord Denning's inquiry into the Profumo affair.

	28-01-2004 23:03									#48
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It is almost human nature to have an opinion. So, it is not surprising that organizations like the BBC adopt a political viewpoint in their reporting.

But this incident demonstrates in spades why government should not be involved in broadcasting "news." I don't know where all this will lead in Britain, but let's hope that someone raises the basic issue. Management changes are only a short term fix.

	28-01-2004 23:27									#49
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark the chair of the BBC is about to resign.

Done: http://news.google.com/url?ntc=0M0B...oryID%3D4230689

	28-01-2004 23:51									#50
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Yes, some heads needed to roll here from the Blair Bashing Corporation.

BTW, has anyone heard anything of Gilligan in the last eight months? I wonder what he's been doing...

	29-01-2004 02:46									#51
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He's resigned :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/hutton/st...1133422,00.html

Although noone is QUITE sure why.

-Jam

	29-01-2004 02:51									#52
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The press should bash the government, it's their job! Especially as there is no opposition party.

	29-01-2004 02:52									#53
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quote: The press should bash the government, it's their job!

I don't know where this myth has come from.

	29-01-2004 02:52									#54
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A question: has anyone here ever had the inside info in such an inquiry?

	29-01-2004 02:54									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue I don't know where this myth has come from.

Well normally the press would point out what the opposition is saying is bad with the government's proposals etc. As they have practically identical policies it's difficult. If the press tells the other side of the issue obviously they are seen as 'bashing'.

	29-01-2004 02:55									#56
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Yes. My dad used to work for HMSO, who print all these documents for the government. They are actually VERY VERY VERY dull to read. They try soooo hard not to say anything concrete.

-Jam

	29-01-2004 02:59									#57
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quote: Well normally the press would point out what the opposition is saying is bad with the government's proposals etc. As they have practically identical policies it's difficult. If the press tells the other side of the issue obviously they are seen as 'bashing'.

What you have described is giving a balanced viewpoint, offering both perspectives.

I was asking for an explanation as to why the press' job is to "bash the government". See your post of 21:51:02.

	29-01-2004 03:03									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Yes. My dad used to work for HMSO, who print all these documents for the government. They are actually VERY VERY VERY dull to read. They try soooo hard not to say anything concrete. -Jam

Exactly - which is what makes them next to useless most of the time.

Apparently all the journalists who were leaving the Report were muttering "whitewash".

	29-01-2004 03:07									#59
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Yep, I can imagine that. What do you expect of a document written ny a committe, half of whom have lunch with the people the document is about? Civil service rubbish. One hand washes the other and all that...

-Jam

	29-01-2004 03:55									#60
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quote: Yes, some heads needed to roll here from the Blair Bashing Corporation.

Several years ago the BBC was being accused of being anti Tory and far too pro labbour. I think whoever is in power is going to complain about an objective/neutral broadcaster. The fact that both political main parties take turns to attack the BBC suggests to me that its not particularly biased either way.

And of course Gavyn Davis and Greg **** were held up as Labour stooges in the right wing press (much of which is owned by News International who have a vested interest in attacking BBC News)