30-01-2004 05:55									#91
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Anyway, I don't see why Asher cares if he is going to hell. He's already in with the Bossman.

Attachment: billgates2devil.gif
This has been downloaded 86 time(s).

	30-01-2004 06:02									#92
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: so how do you know it was a CHRISTIAN bible??

Because the salesman said so?

	30-01-2004 06:03									#93
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

@ Agathon

	30-01-2004 06:48									#94
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: I am left with the conclusion that the only people who truly believe that homosexuality is a choice are bisexual...

Hmm...why would bi-sexuality be a choice? If you're attracted to the opposite sex, same sex, or both, your attraction still isn't really a choice now, is it?

On a sidenote, are pedophiles making a choice? I doubt it, who would choose to be attracted to little kids? So "orientation" is not a valid factor in what should be legal or illegal...

	30-01-2004 07:07									#95
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Anyway, I don't see why Asher cares if he is going to hell. He's already in with the Bossman.

It would be a somewhat amusing feat of Christianity if Bill Gates go to hell, being the world's greatest philanthropist.

	30-01-2004 07:08									#96
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Hmm...why would bi-sexuality be a choice? If you're attracted to the opposite sex, same sex, or both, your attraction still isn't really a choice now, is it? On a sidenote, are pedophiles making a choice? I doubt it, who would choose to be attracted to little kids? So "orientation" is not a valid factor in what should be legal or illegal...

Somebody ought to swat you enough times so that you can start recognizing people's positions before arguing with them.

	30-01-2004 07:09									#97
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

Matthew 19:16-26...

	30-01-2004 07:17									#98
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

pedophilia isn't illegal; having sex with kids is

	30-01-2004 07:21									#99
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Somebody ought to swat you enough times so that you can start recognizing people's positions before arguing with them.

Gee Asher, you were the one who said only bi-sexuals should view homosexuality as a choice since they are attracted to both genders, i.e., they are making a choice. I merely pointed out that if attraction is not a choice, then it isn't a choice for bi-sexuals either. But instead of addressing what you said and what I said in response, you chose to lash out. A bit high strung tonight?

	30-01-2004 07:25									#100
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Gee Asher, you were the one who said only bi-sexuals should view homosexuality as a choice since they are attracted to both genders, i.e., they are making a choice. I merely pointed out that if attraction is not a choice, then it isn't a choice for bi-sexuals either. But instead of addressing what you said and what I said in response, you chose to lash out. A bit high strung tonight?

I was showing a faulty string of logic as an obvious example of why people shouldn't be saying it's a choice. I was saying people who say it is a choice would have to be bisexual, because they can choose to only marry and have sexual relations with one of the genders.

But thank you for being rather dense...

	30-01-2004 07:31									#101
	Got spare money?

I think some people need to CHILL! And don't even think of continuing it in other threads!

	30-01-2004 07:32									#102
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker On a sidenote, are pedophiles making a choice? I doubt it, who would choose to be attracted to little kids? So "orientation" is not a valid factor in what should be legal or illegal...

Agreed, it's not a valid factor, however most of us feel that consent is.

	30-01-2004 07:39									#103
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Asher -

quote: I was showing a faulty string of logic as an obvious example of why people shouldn't be saying it's a choice. I was saying people who say it is a choice would have to be bisexual, because they can choose to only marry and have sexual relations with one of the genders. But thank you for being rather dense...

You made no mention of marriage in your opening post, just that people who believe homosexuality is a choice must be bi-sexual. Here is what you said:

quote: I am always perplexed by people who insist homosexuality is a choice. Is heterosexuality a choice for them? Have they sat down and decided if they would like men or women? This would be the reason they believe homosexuality is a choice, right? Because they could choose themselves? If not, where do they get this idea that it's a choice? I am left with the conclusion that the only people who truly believe that homosexuality is a choice are bisexual...

So, why is bi-sexuality a choice? You've committed the same error you decry in your post - concluding an "orientation" is chosen.

	30-01-2004 07:42									#104
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker So, why is bi-sexuality a choice? You've committed the same error you decry in your post - concluding an "orientation" is chosen.

The last sentence was meant in jest, for the most part.

You are obviously having problems with logic though, I never said bisexuality is a choice. Being bisexual while choosing to only have intercourse with women, while assuming the same can be true for all gay people who simply choose to have sex with men -- that would be a choice.

It's still not the point. Maybe you should sit on it for a bit.

	30-01-2004 07:55									#105
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Mindseye -

quote: Agreed, it's not a valid factor, however most of us feel that consent is.

But this thread is about orientation, not consent.

Asher -

quote: The last sentence was meant in jest, for the most part.

Ah, the old "don't expose the illogic in my post, it was a joke" trick?

quote: You are obviously having problems with logic though, I never said bisexuality is a choice.

You said people who consider the homosexual orientation to be a choice must be people who chose their orientation and that must mean they are bi-sexual. Now you never said that?

quote: Being bisexual while choosing to only have intercourse with women, while assuming the same can be true for all gay people who simply choose to have sex with men -- that would be a choice.

If a bi-sexual chooses only to have sex with the opposite (or same) gender, then they really aren't practicing bi-sexuals. But what does that have to do with the possibility that orientation is not a choice regardless of whom you find attractive?

quote: It's still not the point. Maybe you should sit on it for a bit.

What was the point? Oh yeah, people who think homosexuality is a choice must be bi-sexual because bi-sexuality is a choice.

	30-01-2004 08:06									#106
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Asher - Ah, the old "don't expose the illogic in my post, it was a joke" trick?

There was no illogic because I never said bisexuality was a choice. What don't you get?

quote: You said people who consider the homosexual orientation to be a choice must be people who chose their orientation and that must mean they are bi-sexual. Now you never said that?

No, you still don't get it. My point is they are bisexual. But they "choose" to be heterosexual by only having relationships with the opposite sex, probably for religious or societal reasons. Because they felt they could choose to be with men or women, they assume the same is others for well. Thus why they call being homosexuality a choice, because they had a choice.

Get it yet?

	30-01-2004 08:26									#107
	Increase Your PM Length

BWAAHAHAHAHAHA

	30-01-2004 08:30									#108
	Tired of ads?

Zylka is a trisexual.

	30-01-2004 08:35									#109
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

My hand? It's been a lopsided triangle these past few!!

	30-01-2004 08:55									#110
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Asher -

quote: There was no illogic because I never said bisexuality was a choice. What don't you get?

Your entire post was about choice and orientation:

quote: I am always perplexed by people who insist homosexuality is a choice. Is heterosexuality a choice for them?

quote: I am left with the conclusion that the only people who truly believe that homosexuality is a choice are bisexual...

See? If someone is bi-sexual, they're attracted to both sexes. So why is bi-sexuality a choice? Do bi-sexuals consider their orientation a matter of "choice"? And why on Earth would bi-sexuals who obviously find the same sex attractive look down upon homosexuals?

quote: No, you still don't get it. My point is they are bisexual. But they "choose" to be heterosexual by only having relationships with the opposite sex, probably for religious or societal reasons. Because they felt they could choose to be with men or women, they assume the same is others for well. Thus why they call being homosexuality a choice, because they had a choice. Get it yet?

But homosexuals do have a choice, many are fathers and mothers who later divorced to be true to themselves. Some remain married and faithful, so is that not a choice?





Oh btw, I got it the first time I read your post. One troll deserves another.

	30-01-2004 08:59									#111
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker See? If someone is bi-sexual, they're attracted to both sexes. So why is bi-sexuality a choice? Do bi-sexuals consider their orientation a matter of "choice"? And why on Earth would bi-sexuals who obviously find the same sex attractive look down upon homosexuals?

Is it funny or sad that you still don't understand? I'm not sure yet. Perhaps I'm not veing verbose enough and assume too much of you.

You're reading the sentence too literally. Bisexuality (not bi-sexuality ) is not a choice. And I do believe many people are bisexual, but they choose to "be" heterosexual by only being with women as it's more acceptable. These people (NOT all bisexuals like you seem to think, just the ones that date women exclusively to try to be hetero) would seem to assume that since they could be attracted to both genders, and chose to be "heterosexual", that gays had the same choice but chose to be "homosexual".

That is the only reasoning I could think of to see how somebody could really think homosexuality was a choice -- that is, if they contemplated this themselves.

	30-01-2004 09:13									#112
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Is it funny or sad that you still don't understand? I'm not sure yet.

Let us know when the confusion clears.

quote: You're reading the sentence too literally.

Should I be reading your mind instead?

quote: Bisexuality (not bi-sexuality ) is not a choice.

Agreed, bi-sexuality (not bisexuality ) is not a choice.

quote: And I do believe many people are bisexual, but they choose to "be" heterosexual by only being with women as it's more acceptable.

But that isn't heterosexual wrt orientation.

quote: These people (NOT all bisexuals like you seem to think, just the ones that date women exclusively to try to be hetero) would seem to assume that since they could be attracted to both genders, and chose to be "heterosexual", that gays had the same choice but chose to be "homosexual".

But they are attracted to both genders. Why would they look down upon homosexuals given their orientation? That's where your "logic" falls apart...

quote: That is the only reasoning I could think of to see how somebody could really think homosexuality was a choice -- that is, if they contemplated this themselves.

But that requires us to believe bi-sexuals look down upon homosexuals when they also share an attraction to the same sex.







You've been parsed

	30-01-2004 09:45									#113
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker But that isn't heterosexual wrt orientation.

Heterosexual by practice, not by orientation.

I view sexuality as being different from who they actually have sex with. If they're sexually attracted to both genders but choose to only have sex with one gender, they're still bisexual in my books. Their sexual preference is different from sexual orientation in this case.

If you never have sex with anyone, does this stop you from being straight? Sexual practice is not the same thing as orientation. Similarly, some straight men have gay sex for porn videos but are still straight(!).

quote: But they are attracted to both genders. Why would they look down upon homosexuals given their orientation? That's where your "logic" falls apart...

Because they're uber-Christians? Or homophobic? Or afraid of people's reactions if they found out this person was bisexual?

It's part of human nature. You know, it's like in elementary school when girls had cooties.

quote: But that requires us to believe bi-sexuals look down upon homosexuals when they also share an attraction to the same sex.

NOT all bisexuals. I've clarified this several times now. I'm referring to bisexuals who chose to live a heterosexual life, while at the same time proclaiming sexuality is a choice because they could choose.

It's a very simple concept and I'm unsure why you can't grasp it. You're intentionally overcomplicating things, while at the same time constantly misinterpreting things and constructing strawmen even while corrected...

	30-01-2004 09:49									#114
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Sexuality can indeed be a choice. but who exactly even argues it IS, anymore??

	30-01-2004 09:56									#115
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Heterosexual by practice, not by orientation.

Orientation is nothing more than attraction, by definition, bi-sexuals are attracted to both genders.

quote: I view sexuality as being different from who they actually have sex with. If they're sexually attracted to both genders but choose to only have sex with one gender, they're still bisexual in my books. Their sexual preference is different from sexual orientation in this case.

Aside from the last part (orientation and preference are essentially synomynous), correct. But your post was to take a jab at people who don't view homosexuals in nice terms, so why would bi-sexuals be in that boat when they obviously share an attraction to the same sex?

quote: If you never have sex with anyone, does this stop you from being straight?

Nope, because orientation doesn't require action.

quote: Sexual practice is not the same thing as orientation.

Agreed.

quote: Similarly, some straight men have gay sex for porn videos but are still straight(!).

Yup, and what is their orientation? Heterosexual.

	30-01-2004 09:59									#116
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Aside from the last part (orientation and preference are essentially synomynous), correct. But your post was to take a jab at people who don't view homosexuals in nice terms, so why would bi-sexuals be in that boat when they obviously share an attraction to the same sex?

For the last time, I'm not saying all bisexuals don't view homosexuals in nice terms.

*sigh*

I don't know how many times I can explain this if you still do not get it. I'm going to repeat myself one last time.

------

To me, the only way somebody can insist homosexuality is a choice is if that person was able to make a choice between homosexuality and heterosexuality themselves. The only way I can see somebody actually able to make that choice, is if they're at least somewhat bisexual. Therefore, the only case I can see for somebody arguing that homosexuality is a choice is if they were bisexual and chose to act like a heterosexual.

	30-01-2004 10:19									#117
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Because they're uber-Christians? Or homophobic? Or afraid of people's reactions if they found out this person was bisexual?

Fear of themselves? Sure, there are some people who are homosexual or bi-sexual who remain in the closet and who might even display an anti-homosexual sentiment, but to conclude that heterosexuals who think homosexuality is a choice are actually bi-sexual is illogical. They could be mis-informed, willfully ignorant because of their religious views, or something else, all without being bi-sexuals who made a choice to have sex with only the other sex. Besides, if they are bi-sexual, do they also believe they chose to be bi-sexually oriented? That was the implication of your argument... That orientation is a choice for these alleged bi-sexuals regardless of their practices...

quote: NOT all bisexuals. I've clarified this several times now. I'm referring to bisexuals who chose to live a heterosexual life, while at the same time proclaiming sexuality is a choice because they could choose. It's a very simple concept and I'm unsure why you can't grasp it. You're intentionally overcomplicating things, while at the same time constantly misinterpreting things and constructing strawmen even while corrected...

Well gee whiz, it's a bit peculiar to complain about "NOT all bisexuals" when you effectively announced how all heterosexuals who consider homosexuality to be a choice are actually bi-sexuals. They could just be ignorant you know, or maybe they consider behavior outside of the "norm" to be a matter of choice and not something inherent. Obviously I don't mean all bi-sexuals, I'm referring only to alleged bi-sexuals who view homosexuality as a choice - you know, the group we've been discussing.

	30-01-2004 10:27									#118
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: For the last time, I'm not saying all bisexuals don't view homosexuals in nice terms. *sigh*

We aren't talking about all bi-sexuals, just heterosexuals who view homosexuality as a choice which you believe makes them bi-sexual. You established the context so why do you keep harping on that strawman?

quote: To me, the only way somebody can insist homosexuality is a choice is if that person was able to make a choice between homosexuality and heterosexuality themselves. The only way I can see somebody actually able to make that choice, is if they're at least somewhat bisexual. Therefore, the only case I can see for somebody arguing that homosexuality is a choice is if they were bisexual and chose to act like a heterosexual.

Bi-sexuals don't make a choice between homosexuality and heterosexuality, they have both orientations. It doesn't matter if a bi-sexual chooses to have sex only with the other sex, they'd have to believe their orientation - attraction to both sexes - was a choice. So, while you presume that heterosexuality and homosexuality are not choices, your argument presumes that these bi-sexuals did choose.

	30-01-2004 10:32									#119
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I don't think Asher is claiming that they actually ARE bisexuals, but that they would have to be to be able to justify their statements.

	30-01-2004 10:33									#120
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You're no fun to debate with. Not only because you're as relentless as I am, but you apparently still don't understand the purpose of the post and its intent. At this point, I think it's fairly safe to say it'd be hopeless to continue *****ing at you.

You have left me stunned, and not in the good way.