18-02-2001 23:13									#1
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Gentlemen, It seems that we've gotten off the pratctice of numbering our games. I've taken the liberty of assigning every known game to have taken place a number. Some of them are abitrary in their chronology because of the lack of information and the sheer enormity of the task. So don't get too worried about that, because determining the exact order of start date might be like counting Florida undervotes. The concept of a numbering system is a rather helpful way to track the progress and history of games. All other Dip clubs uses them in some form, and we seem to have used a system at one time. Doing so doesn't preclude a game from having a title per se, but it makes it more manageable and provides a way to distinguish between similarly titled games. From here on I suggest that anyone starting a new game at ADC contact me to get a game umber assigned.

Here's what I have so far:

Game # Title Type Map GM/Winner(s)
Dip 1: none Std. Std. unkown/Abandoned
Dip 2: none Std. Std. unkown/Abandoned
Dip 3: none Std. Std. unkown/Cyber Gnu
Dip 4: none Std. Modern unkown/Hacksaw, Du_Chateau, Gibster, Iain Lindley
Dip 5: none Std. Modern unkown/Monk
Dip 6: none Std. 1600 Reismark/Cyber Gnu
Dip 7: none Standard Global unkown/Abandoned
Dip 8: none Standard 1600 Takeshi/Abandoned
Dip 9: none Standard Heptarchy LordStone1 SnowFire
Dip 10: none Standard Modern unkown/Abandoned
Dip 11: none Gunboat Standard Takeshi/Abandoned
Dip 12: none Standard Imperial Du_Chateau/Allod, RUFFHAUS8
Dip 13: none Standard Standard unkown/Abandoned
Dip 14: none Standard Standard unkown/Abandoned
Dip 15: none Standard Standard unkown/Abandoned
Dip 16: Silent Dip I Gunboat Standard Boshko/LordStone1
Dip 17: Silent Dip II Gunboat Aberration Boshko/Cyber Gnu
Dip 18: Rocky Road Standard Standard unkown/Boshko, Mao, Monk
Dip 19: Silent Dip III Gunboat Renaissance unkown/SnowFire
Dip 20: none Standard Imperial Du_Chateau/Lordstone, Boshko, Gibster, Bezerker
Dip 21: none Standard Modern Boshko/Dan.te
Dip 22: Postmodern Standard Postmodern RUFFHUAS8/(still active)
Dip 23: Amatsu Standard Colonial RUFFHUAS8/(still active)
Dip 24: Bismark Standard Standard Sahib/Abandoned
Dip 25: Dip Alpha Standard Standard Borodino/Abandoned
Dip 26: Classical Standard Classical Coug/Abandoned
Dip 27: Dip X unknown unknown Alphaman/Abandoned
Dip 28: Thyferrian Standard Standard Coug/Abandoned
Dip 29: Carpe Diem Standard Classical Polaris/Abandoned
Dip 30: Silent Dip IV Standard Standard Boshko/Mao
Dip 31: Mancunian Standard Standard Defiant/Victor Galis
Dip 32: Nihihihi Standard Standard Boshko/Victor Galis
Dip 33: ADCT Game A Standard Standard Victor Galis/RUFFHUAS8
Dip 34: ADCT Game B Standard Standard Du_Chateau/Gibster
Dip 35: ADCT Game C Standard Standard Boshko/Berserker, Defiant, Chazzy
Dip 36: ADCT Final Standard Standard LordStone1/(still active)
Dip 37: Apprentice Dip Standard Standard Boshko/ScottF
Dip 38: 20th Century Standard 20th Century Du_Chateau/RUFFHUAS8, Defiant
Dip 39: Saxony Royale 1600 LordStone1/SnowFire, Victor Galis, Stefu, Komitet
Dip 40: 1600 Dip Standard 1600 Du_Chateau/(still active)
Dip 41: Alien Dip Alien Modern Boshko/(still active)
Dip 42: Mahem Dip Standard Modern Talon/(still active)
Dip 43: Colonization Dip Colonization 20th Century Reismark/(still active)
Dip 44: Civilization Dip Civilization 20th Century Shadowstrike/(still active)
Dip 45: Shogun Dip Shogun Shogun Polaris/Abandoned
Dip 46: Domination Dip Standard 20th Century Defiant/(still active)
Dip 47: San Andreas Dip Seismic Standard LordStone1/(still active)
Dip 48: Newbie Dip Sstandard Standard Sahib/(still active)
Dip 49: Grey Dip Gunboat Standard Boshko/(still active)
Dip 50: Imperial 3 Imperial Imperial MDR/(still active)
Dip 51: NEXT GAME


[This message has been edited by RUFFHAUS8 (edited February 18, 2001).]

	19-02-2001 00:48									#2
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*looks at abandoned games sadly*

	19-02-2001 05:59									#3
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Wow! 16 abandoned games out of 50?!? Thats not good lads. Lets make sure that those still active finish, eh?

	19-02-2001 06:11									#4
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Some notes:
Dip 1 was GMed by a person named Porphygentius or something like that, I believe, or "Porphy" for short. Don't ask me, I joined around the time Dip 5 started.

Dip 11 was a blind game, not a Gunboat game. If anything it was the opposite because we HAD to negotiate a lot if we wanted to have eyes. Too bad the game lasted all of 2 turns.

As for the whole idea, I must admit I'm not too keen on it. What I am in favor of is giving all games a unique title (for instance, I didn't like Dip 1600's name at all; there have been multiple games played on the 1600 map but Coug was uncreative and refused to think up a more distinctive name), which is why I generally refer to Dip23 as Amatsu Diplomacy, not Colonial Diplomacy or Dip23.

Of course, I don't have a problem with numbering your game to make it distinctive, but I don't see why it should be required...

In any case, I'd be curious to hear what other people think of this.

	19-02-2001 06:36									#5
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Shocking, SnowFire! You're not too keen on anything we do around here to improve the community. Basically if you didn't create it, it's crap. Right? Well too damn bad. These games are going to have numbers to distinguish themselves from each other. I've got no beef with the unique titles, and actually encourage them if the GM so chooses to be creative. Just like I said the first time. Having a theme to a game is a great idea. But having a unique name to a game that has no theme is rather pointless.

The purpose for numbering the games is to distinguish them from each other when no numbers are given. I think it's necessary, and therefore I will take the responsibility of maintaining it. It also gives us some perspective as to how many games we've had here at Apolyton. I do this because I care about the club, and the quality of the Diplomacy played here. I think it will help, and I don't give a rat's ass what you think.

As for Dip 1 and Dip 11 thanks for the clarification, but any game that lasted one or two turns isn't worth trying to dig up the name of a long lost GM or debating the semantics between 'blind' and 'gunboat' with you.

	19-02-2001 06:57									#6
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Sigh...

RUFFHAUS: I'm not sure what I said to offend you. I didn't add those clarifications to insult you, merely to clear up your list. This wasn't even that big an issue to me; I just think that unique names are more aethetically pleasing and numbers are too prosaic. But it hardly makes a difference, ultimately. I was completely caught off guard by your flamethrower on this.

As for your claim that I believe that "If I didn't create it, it's crap," I don't know where to start. I enjoy Diplomacy which is why I play here. But as for actually creating things, I've done precious little (I have still not GMed a game myself), meaning that apperantly I think a lot is crap. I suppose you're drawing this statement because I didn't like your ADC ranking system, and apperantly don't like this. The reason I disliked your ADC rankings was not because I had already set up some random ranking before; it was because I'm not a fan of keeping track of every middling little NMR and thought that the rankings would promulgate the wrong kind of competition in games. And I might add that the rankings I used for the website was not of my own creation, but directly stolen from tournament methods I saw. As for the current topic of debate, I've named NONE of those previous games, so again, I don't see your logic.

This was two disagreements. I'm sorry, but I certainly hope you don't see this as a pattern.

As to your other thing:

The purpose for numbering the games is to distinguish them from each other when no numbers are given. I think it's necessary, and therefore I will take the responsibility of maintaining it. It also gives us some perspective as to how many games we've had here at Apolyton. I do this because I care about the club, and the quality of the Diplomacy played here. I think it will help, and I don't give a rat's ass what you think.

Well, I'm delighted that you don't give a rat's ass what I think, but what you propose is something for the club as a whole to decide on, not something you can add on by fiat. Look, you are not the GM of many of these games, whose ultimate responsibility it is to name the game. Remember what I was saying before about disliking the naming of Coug's game? Despite disliking it, I didn't decide to go out and rename it myself: it wasn't my game to name.

Now I'm sure you think this is a great idea and numbering all games is neccesary, this doesn't mean that all GMs should have to number their games or come to you for approval or whatever. If the club decides to number all the games, fine, but I thought you were proposing this idea for debate, not arbitrarily saying "This is the way things will be from now on."

This will hopefully be my last post here. Really, I come here for Diplomacy, not politics, and am more than content to simply sign up for games and not spend time debating acronyms and rankings and other frills.
[This message has been edited by SnowFire (edited February 18, 2001).]

	19-02-2001 07:22									#7
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Well, I'm not numbering the games. In fact, I think I was the first person to come up with a game without a number: Rocky Road Diplomacy. However, as a purpose of record-keeping, this list is a good idea, gives us a perspective on how many games we've begun and so on. For example, I never thought we had started 50 games. It's a lot when you think about it for a while.

By the way, using numbers for distinguishing similarly-titled games?? The only one I can think of is Colonization v. Civilization Diplomacy, and no one has gotten them mixed up yet...

However, this won't affect the ADC community in any way, really. It's more trivia than anything else. It's good that we have it around should we need it later. If someone starts up a game, you can simply assign them a number for record-keeping.

And Ruffhaus, you really didn't have to jump on SnowFire like that. He was merely offering constructive criticism.

In any case, thank you for doing all this work.

	19-02-2001 07:24									#8
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I believe Dip 7 was GMed by Zhakiago.

	19-02-2001 09:45									#9
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Whatever, guys. I really wish you'd read things before firing off. Constructive criticism? I doubt it. And I would say that it is exactly a pattern with SnowFire, which is why I snapped at him. That was wrong, and I guess I am being too sensitive. however, I find the sniping unnecessary. And at times it really does seem like you come here to debate and play politics. And this is a perfect example.

Assigning a number to each game has no bearing whatsoever on the creativity of the GM to name a game and refer to it as such on the threads, nor did I suggest that it should. It furthermore doesn't affect the play of any game. It is as LordStone mentioned a trivial piece of data, requiring no effort on aanyone's part but my own.

I saw assigning a number to each game as an oganizational method that obviously was once in place here. It is also employed effectively but other Diplomacy communities for the same reason that I have mentioned. These games manage to continue and have names and themes along with a number designation. I think we'll manage too in spite of the oppressive numbers that may be applied to a game.

I'll clarify what I mean about naming games. What would we do if we had two games going at the same time using the title "Colonial Diplomacy?" Let's assume that neither GM could be bother to create a theme or an interesting name to distinguish them. How would we tell them apart. Or how about "Silent Dip?" Those are already numbered in some fashion. Eventually these variant will be replayed again and again, and more ofeten than not they will lack a specific name.

Even if you completely disagree that such a system is needed, why does it annoy you so that I would implement it? How does it affect your gaming experience? It doesn't at all.

	19-02-2001 16:59									#10
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Uhhuuuu. Stop it! This is not OT. Stories&Diplomacy has always been such a nice place, don´t change it into that battle ground we know as OffTopic, please!

Maybe there´s room for both, names and numbers. Maybe both are needed?

A name is a good thing, it makes it much easier to find your game thread amid a dozen others. I have seen people posting in a Dip22 thread when they wanted to post in Dip20. Such things can be very confusing. A name helps there.

On the other hand, numbers have their advantages too. It´s easier to follow the history of the club as a whole. And it certainly makes it easier for people like Ruffy, who keep track of the ADC records.

So is there a problem? No! Because you can give each game a number AND a name. Why not? I currently GM a game wich I called "Newbie". Since Ruffy now gave us that (very good) list, I now call it "Dip 48 Newbie". Period.

Sometimes we dispute things on Apolyton that are not worth the energy we spend on them. I wish we would spend that energy and time rather on strategy. You know, the WM forum for example has been rather quiet lately. ;-)

And now for some thread highjacking: I need a replacement for Austria in "Dip 48 Newbie". It´s a nice position!

	20-02-2001 01:00									#11
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Hey Ruffhaus, since you listed my three wins, don't you think it's time you elevated me from 'recruit'?

------------------
Gnu Ex Machina - the Gnu in the Machine

	20-02-2001 01:11									#12
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The numbering system is good, it lets us know how many games have been played at this site, I will still call mine Domination or something like Dip 46 Domination moves are due, BTW TODAY. But at least we know we 50 some games initiated at this site. Ruff did a lot of work on this and I believe it should be embraced by the rest of the Dip community, just a thought.

	20-02-2001 01:50									#13
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Well, rat farts! I never meant for this to be such a big deal, and I never meant to be nasty to SnowFire. I think he an I have settled things to some extent privately.

The intent behind issuing a game number was neve meant to be anything more than an organizational tool for tracking and distinguishing games from one another. It wasn't intended to be a mandatory thing that GMS muse use in referring to their games. I just figured when the time comes to ussue another number because the GM can't think of anything better to name the game, then he'll have an idea of what number. If nothing else it just helps to keep count of how many games that we've hosted here.


Cyber Gnu: I started tracking ADC play/performance shortly after it's inception with the start of Dip 22 Postmodern. I have no idea how to go back and achieve statistics play in games past. So my ranking scale will definately slight you from that perspective. But any player with your track record should easily be able to overcome such a minor setback! Why not join us for another game soon?

Sahib: This MOBIUS character appeared on the threads last night claiming to have sent his orders for Newbie Dip. Maybe he sent them by ICQ?

	20-02-2001 01:57									#14
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I am lucky number 13 in this thread. Now that it has been settled properly (privately) lets get these games finished! I for one think that DIP 22 is over. Definately a Turkish solo!! Just kidding Bezerker and Victor!

	20-02-2001 07:03									#15
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*Yawn* Once again, Ruffhaus decides to piss off people because of his idiotic slave devotion to this ADC... which was never meant to end up this way. Alas, as it is with every bureaucracy, right Snowfire and Lordstone?

	20-02-2001 07:07									#16
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Imran,
Why don't you stay out of here, it is none of your concern anymore, leave us do deal with the way we want to have this site ran.

	20-02-2001 08:52									#17
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Imran, this is neither the place nor time for your political views... the ADC bureaucracy as you call it consists of a few records upkept every half month or so mostly by Ruffhaus, a single person. Yeah, what a bloated bureaucracy this is We should be thanking him for the time he is taking for the ADC, since the rest of us (or at least I) are too lazy to do it ourselves.

	22-02-2001 01:41									#18
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Yes, thank him for doing something, when people don't even care for it, as seen on this thread.

Sounds like the USSR, something you admire, right?

	22-02-2001 01:48									#19
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Yeah, Imran, we all do!
>starts singing<
"Sajous sarushennie..."

	22-02-2001 03:44									#20
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*starts humming along with Sahib's singing*

But seriously, I can't admire the USSR without being hypocritical, so I don't.

	22-02-2001 09:10									#21
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Imran, if you have nothing constructive to say; keep your opinions to yourself. Go get the points you lost for insulting us, who take the ADC seriously, somewhere else. Go write a story no one wants to read. If all you want to do is cause problems, I feel sorry for you.

	22-02-2001 10:58									#22
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Did I touch a nerve...

All I know is that Ruffhaus went BALLISTIC on Snowfire. A really good guy. It was a bit uncalled for. Snowfire had the gall to say that he didn't think this was a good idea... what he isn't allowed to?

	22-02-2001 18:42									#23
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Listen you twit, it is none of your business what goes on between Ruff and Snowie, man you're thick, don't you get it, you ARE NOT welcomed here, why don't go back and suck on your mama's nipple.

	23-02-2001 08:08									#24
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Didn't I read in the thread (before imran defended Snowfire's honor) Ruff apologise for being defensive? Didn't Ruff also say that he and Snowfire worked it out peacefully and privately? Like men, I might add! Why did you conviently read only the negatives here, imran? Next time read the entire thread before you submit a worthless reply. This issue was settled and buried, by active ADC members, long before you decided to be a trouble-maker yet again.