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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:33
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Mindseye - quote:
 lol You actually read this statement: "the average life expectancy of homosexuals is 20 to 30 years less than heterosexuals" ... and you believed it? |
I trust Walter Williams, my mistake for not doing more research. But I can't say I believed those specific numbers, just that I believe homosexuals have a shorter life span and his point remains valid even if the numbers aren't that low.
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Berzerker, you really need to get out of Kansas more often. |
I spent ~12 years growing up in SF and another 10 or so in LA.
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Both of the reports cited were based on the writings of Paul Cameron, who was unceremoniously tossed out of the American Psychological Association twenty years ago for his laughably unscientific research techniques and for deliberately distorting the work of other psychologists. His "research" has been utterly and thoroughly discredited.
To give you an idea of the quality of this fellow's work, he has also claimed his research showed that that 70% of homosexuals eat their partner's excrement, and that the average gay man has 110 sex partners per year. Cameron has publicly called for the castration of gay men, and the tattooing and quarantining of those with AIDS.
In a public address he one time announced that "Right now here in Lincoln, there is a 4-year-old boy who has had his genitals almost severed from his body in a restroom with a homosexual act." When police followed up on this claim, he admitted that it wasn't true, but that it "could be".
I suggest you vet your data more carefully before posting rubbish like this |
Paul Cameron's name didn't appear in the article. But you go ahead and tell us just what is the life expectancy for homosexuals. Is it ~6-8 years less or more than heterosexuals? It's hard finding "unbiased" studies but I did give it a go:
quote:
CONCLUSION: In a major Canadian centre, life expectancy at age 20 years for gay and bisexual men is 8 to 20 years less than for all men. If the same pattern of mortality were to continue, we estimate that nearly half of gay and bisexual men currently aged 20 years will not reach their 65th birthday. Under even the most liberal assumptions, gay and bisexual men in this urban centre are now experiencing a life expectancy similar to that experienced by all men in Canada in the year 1871. |
http://ije.oupjournals.org/cgi/cont...alcode=intjepid
8-20 years less? The larger number ~matches the smaller number from Cameron.
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
True, and the goal of adoption should be to find environments with the fewest disconnects, not more only to pretend they don't exist. |
But you've yet in any way to substantiate that a kid having gay parents will be such a "disconnect." You're just assuming it will be.
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How can you argue there is no evidence only to cite evidence yourself? |
What evidence did I cite? I cited none, so that's another strawman.
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Can the homosexuals here actually claim they felt no anxiety over their parents finding out about their orientation? |
Who argued this? Who even suggested this? Read my post--I specifically stated that homosexual kids feel a great deal of angst over their parents finding out their orientation. But that doesn't remotely equate to an emotional disconnect between parents and kids because one is straight and the other is gay. Strangely enough, gay and straight people can relate to each other on deeply intimate levels, despite their sexual orientation. Who would have thought as such?
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Correct (to a degree), I said this in my post. Furthermore, the heterosexual kid will "fit" in better with the community at large. But this same child will still feel a disconnect with his homosexual parents, albeit not as great if the roles are changed. And he will still face more trouble in the larger community. |
Again, this "disconnect" you claim is unsubstantiated. I don't feel any disconnect with my parents because they are heterosexual. I don't feel a disconnect with my best friends, most of whom are heterosexual. But your simplistic notions of intimate human relationships are revealing and troublesome...
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I suspect it would, that's why I've been asking people if they would rather see a homosexual child adopted by a homosexual couple. But I'm not getting an answer... I wonder why... But if you consider that a boon for a homosexual child, why would you consider it a plus or inconsequential for a heterosexual child? You've basicly just made my case for me... |
I doubt I made any case for you, as you've presented no argument other than "I think homosexuals are less-fit parents" without substantiating it with any sort of evidence. So you're biased, we knew that all along.
The reason I think it would be a boon to a gay kid, and possibly a straight kid, is not because of any instrinsic value of the parents being homosexual, it's because as openly gay folks, should their child be gay, they won't (likely) have difficulty accepting it, so the gay kid will likely go through less inner turmoil than with heterosexual parents whose reactions he may not be able to predict. This illustrates a particular advantage of openly gay couples, in that, for the most part, their "dirtiest laundry" is aired, so they will tend to be honest, accepting parents for their children. Yes, that's a sweeping generalization, but I think it's a valid assumption.
Can heterosexual parents be that way? Absolutely, I know plenty of gay people who have wonderfully accepting straight parents. I would have no objection to such folks adopting a gay kid, and I sincerely doubt there'd be any serious disconnect between the kid and the parents. But there are also plenty of heterosexual parents who wouldn't be accepting of it, and some who could be downright nasty about it. This is something that would be, we'd agree, pretty unlikely with a gay couple, yes?
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On a sidenote about the power of the homosexual/liberal lobby:
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 Funny how you seem to want to shift the topic to something that isn't particularly enlightening or relevant.
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:33
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Boris - quote:
But you've yet in any way to substantiate that a kid having gay parents will be such a "disconnect." You're just assuming it will be. |
A safe assumption based in part on the disconnect homosexual children have with their heterosexual parents.
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What evidence did I cite? I cited none, so that's another strawman. |
Here is what you said:
quote:
but so far there is no conclusive empiric evidence, or even a substantial amount of anecdotal evidence, that the sexual orientation of the parents has any significant effect on the children. Homosexual kids have the burden that their parents might not accept them being homosexual, as they have no idea how their parents will react. |
Why would you refer to the burden of homosexual children and then claim there is no evidence for such a burden?
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Who argued this? Who even suggested this? Read my post--I specifically stated that homosexual kids feel a great deal of angst over their parents finding out their orientation. |
And I said that long before you, but that's the point, no one here is arguing that homosexual children feel no disconnect based on their orientation and the heterosexual orientation of their parents (even though you've said their is no empirical or substantial anecdotal evidence of a disconnect only to contradict that assertion in the same paragraph).
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But that doesn't remotely equate to an emotional disconnect between parents and kids because one is straight and the other is gay. Strangely enough, gay and straight people can relate to each other on deeply intimate levels, despite their sexual orientation. Who would have thought as such? |
And you accuse me of introducing strawmen? Some homosexuals and heterosexuals can relate, and some don't. Wouldn't it be wiser to avoid subjecting already troubled children to additional sources of trouble?
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Again, this "disconnect" you claim is unsubstantiated. I don't feel any disconnect with my parents because they are heterosexual. I don't feel a disconnect with my best friends, most of whom are heterosexual. But your simplistic notions of intimate human relationships are revealing and troublesome... |
Ah, so anecdotal evidence doesn't count except when you want to use it? When did you reveal your orientation to your parents? Any anxiety about "coming out"? If so, that's called a disconnect and you've already acknowledged it occurs. I can quote you again if you want...
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I doubt I made any case for you, as you've presented no argument other than "I think homosexuals are less-fit parents" without substantiating it with any sort of evidence. So you're biased, we knew that all along. |
Where did I say homosexuals are unfit? It isn't about the ability of homosexuals, it's about how children adopt to new situations and placing adopted children into environments that are the most conducive, i.e., least "foreign", to their needs.
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The reason I think it would be a boon to a gay kid, and possibly a straight kid, is not because of any instrinsic value of the parents being homosexual, it's because as openly gay folks, should their child be gay, they won't (likely) have difficulty accepting it, so the gay kid will likely go through less inner turmoil than with heterosexual parents whose reactions he may not be able to predict. This illustrates a particular advantage of openly gay couples, in that, for the most part, their "dirtiest laundry" is aired, so they will tend to be honest, accepting parents for their children. Yes, that's a sweeping generalization, but I think it's a valid assumption. |
That was the assumption I made and which you decry. So a homosexual child would be better off being adopted by a homosexual couple because it is easier for that child to relate to the new environment. But then you illogically conclude that a heterosexual child might be better off in that same environment rather than with heterosexual parents. Yes, the heterosexual child won't have to deal with "coming out" before homosexual parents, but they will still be "different" from them and they will still have to deal with the community at large.
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Can heterosexual parents be that way? Absolutely, I know plenty of gay people who have wonderfully accepting straight parents. I would have no objection to such folks adopting a gay kid, and I sincerely doubt there'd be any serious disconnect between the kid and the parents. |
But a child, as you said, never really knows how accepting his parents will be and that will be a source of angst. So why put them into that situation when it can be avoided?
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But there are also plenty of heterosexual parents who wouldn't be accepting of it, and some who could be downright nasty about it. This is something that would be, we'd agree, pretty unlikely with a gay couple, yes? |
True, I'd be surprised as hell if homosexual parents became nasty about their child, adopted or not, being heterosexual. That merely lessens the disconnect though, a disconnect that would not exist at all if that child was with heterosexual parents.
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Funny how you seem to want to shift the topic to something that isn't particularly enlightening or relevant. |
It is relevant, if the homosexual/liberal lobby can put that much pressure on insurance companies, then it can put pressure on adoption agencies to ignore reality. But I'm still here debating the main issue so don't accuse me of trying to run.
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:33
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quote:
Why is this strange in any way? Heterosexuals being the vast majority of the populace will not as likely be discriminated. Homosexuals probably will, so it would be better for them to have parents who more likely than not will not look down on their sexual preference and can give them advice on how to deal with it. Of course that doesn't mean homosexual kids should never be adopted by heterosexual parents. |
It isn't strange, it probably is better for a homosexual child to be adopted by a homosexual couple than a heterosexual couple because of the connection they share. That's my point about heterosexuals adopting heterosexual children, and blacks adopting black children and so on. Those who argue against this are taking the position that fewer connections are as valid as more connections, except when it comes to homosexual children being adopted by homosexuals. That's what I find strange...
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That point is moot anyway, because when you are adopting a kid, they are not even close to be sexually active and thus you cannot be aware what sexual orientation they are. |
Then no one knows if they are heterosexual or homosexual before puberty? I thought homosexuals have been claiming they knew of their orientation, or at least that they were "different", long before puberty. And it is relevant given the fact most children are, or will be, heterosexual and this problem will arise even if it doesn't exist at the time of adoption. So the odds are that an adopted child will be heterosexual and that should be taken into account wrt the sexual orientation of the adopting couple.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
Molly -
And I'm accused of having no sense of humor? I even attached a smilie to it and you guys still think it was a serious comment?
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Oh yes, Berz, of course, your sense of humour.
Right, well could you just make it a wee bit clearer, because your quoted item of ‘medical research’ resembled something out of a Monty Python version of Anita Bryant and Lyndon La Rouche, and yet bizarrely (or perhaps Berzerkly) was lacking a smiley.
Was it really meant to be serious, or was that a joke, and you just omitted the smiley by accident, for it did afford me some amusement, what with its lurid depiction of short lived scatophages roaming through fashionable resorts around the world ?
quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
Sorry, not really interested in your flirtations with cross dressing. |
Oh, the transvestism jest! But lacking a smiley.....
Gosh, you really do have a talent for unoriginality.
Well, we’ve covered the whole gamut now, just about- what with child endangerment/paedophilia and rape ‘causing’ homosexuality (I’m confused- if a lesbian is raped does she become heterosexual? And if she’s raped by a woman, does that make her heterosexual again?) both thanks to the lurid imaginings of Park Avenue, then your quite charming leap into 'medical archives' and its adventures in the realms of truncated lives and ‘Merde a Manger’, and now a jolly jape about cross dressing.
I don’t think I’ve seen so much garbage since I last visited the town dump.
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:33
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Molly - quote:
Oh yes, Berz, of course, your sense of humour.
Right, well could you just make it a wee bit clearer, because your quoted item of ‘medical research’ resembled something out of a Monty Python version of Anita Bryant and Lyndon La Rouche, and yet bizarrely (or perhaps Berzerkly) was lacking a smiley. |
I attached a smilie to my comment, didn't that make it clear enough?
quote:
Was it really meant to be serious, or was that a joke, and you just omitted the smiley by accident, for it did afford me some amusement, what with its lurid depiction of short lived scatophages roaming through fashionable resorts around the world ? |
The article from Williams said nothing about "scatophages". You're referring to Mindseye's post now, not mine.
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Oh, the transvestism jest! But lacking a smiley.....
Gosh, you really do have a talent for unoriginality. |
The smilie didn't help you the first time, so being a rational person I decided not to waste another one.
quote:
Well, we’ve covered the whole gamut now, just about- what with child endangerment/paedophilia and rape ‘causing’ homosexuality (I’m confused- if a lesbian is raped does she become heterosexual? And if she’s raped by a woman, does that make her heterosexual again?) both thanks to the lurid imaginings of Park Avenue, then your quite charming leap into 'medical archives' and its adventures in the realms of truncated lives and ‘Merde a Manger’, and now a jolly jape about cross dressing. I don’t think I’ve seen so much garbage since I last visited the town dump. |
Do me a favor and leave me out of your little diatribe about PA.
None of that relates to my position or what I've said.
I guess you won't be answering those 2 questions I asked...
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mindseye
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A Yankee living in Shanghai
Apr 1999
time: 13:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
1) Would you rather see a homosexual child adopted by a homosexual couple than by a heterosexual couple?
2) Would you rather see a black child adopted by a black couple than a white couple? |
1) I don't know what a "homosexual child" is, assuming "child" means pre-pubescent. Sure, as you say, some gays say they felt "different" before puberty (me, too). I didn't know what that difference was, I just felt I was different in some fundamental way. The difference became apparent with puberty. It is only in retrospect that I know what that "difference" was. You still with me, or should I just head for the wall now?
If there was some way of knowing orientation in advance, I would say that as long as the prospective parents were loving and supportive, I don't think it would make much difference. Loving, supportive parents usually don't care. Mom can give you "guy advice" just as well as a gay Dad can. Oops, I forgot - you think gays are really different from everyone else.
2) Better a willing, supportive white family than an institution. That seems more analogous to the Florida situation.
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Guynemer
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hehe... you said "swallow"
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:33
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quote:
The fact that you cannot fight the gay lobby of Apolyton |
But you can out think them... 
Mindseye - quote:
1) I don't know what a "homosexual child" is, assuming "child" means pre-pubescent. Sure, as you say, some gays say they felt "different" before puberty (me, too). I didn't know what that difference was, I just felt I was different in some fundamental way. The difference became apparent with puberty. It is only in retrospect that I know what that "difference" was. You still with me, or should I just head for the wall now? |
Since you've just echoed what I said, I'd say you've been spending too much time at that wall. Are you saying homosexuality is not acquired until puberty? Obviously when I refer to a homosexual or heterosexual child I'm talking about the orientation they will exhibit when old enough, not the sexual practices of 6-8 year olds.
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If there was some way of knowing orientation in advance, I would say that as long as the prospective parents were loving and supportive, I don't think it would make much difference. Loving, supportive parents usually don't care. Mom can give you "guy advice" just as well as a gay Dad can. Oops, I forgot - you think gays are really different from everyone else. |
You just acknowledged you were "different" so whats wrong with my characterisation? And you're still missing the point, it's not about the parent's ability, my questions and arguments are based on equally qualified couples, it's about how the children fit into their new environment, their views of life. So you don't think it matters if a homosexual child is adopted by heterosexuals or homosexuals? The fact that child shares an additional bond to the homosexual couple is irrelevant in your mind? Explain that to Imran and Boris, because they agree that it would be better for that child to be adopted by a homosexual couple.
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2) Better a willing, supportive white family than an institution. That seems more analogous to the Florida situation. |
You dodged my question, I wasn't asking if it would better for a black child to remain in an institution.
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Thanks, I'll try to keep that in mind next time you quote some figures. |
I was quoting an article and the point being made by the author, the numbers are irrelevant as long as the actual numbers make the same point.
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I see. Even though the claims are obviously bogus and the research thoroughly discredited, "his point remains" - sans evidence - since it fits what you believe about gays. I think you just revealed more about yourself than you intended. |
Are you suggesting homosexuals have a greater or equal life expectancy to heterosexuals? If not, what is your problem?
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What's truly most disturbing to me is that, in a conversation about the possibility that gays have shorter lifespans, your greatest concern is that ... gays are getting some kind of unfair break on life insurance premiums! That's creepy. |
Then you don't "see", the article and the point being made was the power of the homosexual/liberal lobby - a power that can or will be used to alter the actions of adoption agencies and that involves children.
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That actually makes you sound worse! |
Why? Because I've seen the homosexual community and the pressure it puts on people? My friend's dad was a cop in SF and during one of those homosexual riots he was struck in the arm by a brick, a very serious wound (attempted murder). And the "gay" lobby in that city was so strong the cops were told to let them riot and inflict wounds on the cops. They weren't even allowed to defend themselves, they had to stand their and take the abuse; so yes, I'm quite familiar with "homosexual politics".
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You spent 22 years in SF and LA, and no major alarms went off when you read someone claiming that gays have lifespans 20-30 YEARS shorter than straights? You appear willing to swallow anything as long as it fits your disturbing beliefs about gays. |
I'll leave the swallowing to you, but I figured that number would be out of whack if not for AIDS. The second study I cited posited 8-20 years so the first set of numbers are not that far off.
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Imagine you were a black man having a long conversation about civil rights with someone named "Crazed". Suppose "Crazed" trundled out a long parade of ridiculous objections to civil equality, and supported it by quoting the highly sensationalized, utterly discredited research of a famous white supremacist. Imagine that everytime "Crazed" referred to blacks during the conversation, he used the term "negros".
Do you think the you'd be seeing much humor in that? |
First, you don't even know what we were discussing. Molly complained about my joke about little johnny dressing up in mommy's clothes as an indicator of pre-pubescent orientation. It was not about Paul Cameron. Second, if you had read the article I linked, you would have seen that Cameron's name is not mentioned nor were the other claims about "scat" or rape etc, Williams cited only the numbers. Third, we don't have a civil right to adopt, this is about children, not homosexuals and their desire to parent. And fourth, other than the numbers quoted from William's article (which you apparently consider a civil rights violation  ), what analogously racist policies have I advocated?
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Do you think the you'd be seeing much humor in that? |
Saturday Night Live did, they ran a skit about the stereotypical indicators of pre-pubescent homosexual children and how their heterosexual parents need "Homocil" to ease their anxiety.
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Maybe in this Canadian urban center 95% of AIDS cases could be attributed to gay or bi men, but this was certainly not the case in the US at that time (at least not according to the CDC), nor for the rest of the world.
That means any mortality estimates from this study would only be relevant to this city (or places which shared its unusual profile). |
Of course, AIDS worldwide has hit heterosexuals much more (there's more of them too), but a large Canadian urban center has more in common with large US urban centers and that has more relevance to this debate than Africa. So, what would happen if insurance companies started giving discounts to heterosexuals wherever they found a lower life expectancy for homosexuals? That was Williams' point...
Btw, where is this data from the CDC?
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