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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:33
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This was touched on in chat tonight, so I would like to start the discussion on this.
First off, We are planning a massive deficit Research effort, so a very large sum of our cash flow will be going into that effort.
Now, as MoI, I would like to take a little bit of time to talk about, what I call, Throughput rushes (T-rush for short).
What this entails, is shortening the time for various builds, across the board. Lets say that you have 3 cities, building various things. Over a period of time, each of those cities are building different things.
Example #1 : This assumes that production capabilities (WF, tile improvements & pop levels) stay the same over time.
code:
city 1: Lib - 10 turns, Market - 13 turns, Aquduct - 13 turns. Total: 36 turns.
city 2: Uni - 16 turns, Aqua - 10 turns, Bank - 12 turns. Total: 38 turns.
city 3: Granary - 10 turns, Harbor - 14 turns, Galley - 6 turns. Total: 30 turns.
The throughput rush would occur when the builds get to 2 turns left, shortening the total build time by 1 turn each city/build.
Example #2: same builds with T-rushing times
code:
city 1: Lib - 9 turns, Market - 12 turns, Aquduct - 12 turns. Total: 33 turns.
city 2: Uni - 15 turns, Aqua - 9 turns, Bank - 11 turns. Total: 35 turns.
city 3: Granary - 9 turns, Harbor - 13 turns, Galley - 5 turns. Total: 27 turns.
Granted, 3 turns doesn't seem like much. But looking at the total for all of the cities, the 3 turns times the number of cities, that's a lot of time saved, that those things can make contributions to our total economy that much faster. With an empire of 20 cities, that 3 turns per city is a total savings of 60 turns (over this 35 turn period).
Now, one would argue that the money woul be better spent on things that are needed, and much sooner. I.E. spending the money sooner, but only on certain cities. The thing to take into account is that each sheild rushed is worth 4 gold. So, with the above T-rushes, this is what would be spent:
Spending over time from Example #2:
code:
city 1: Lib - 16 sheilds = 64 gold on turn 8, Market - 12 sheilds = 48 gold on turn 20, Aquduct - 12 sheilds = 48 gold on turn 32. Total: 160 gold.
city 2: Uni - 20 sheilds = 80 gold on turn 14, Aqua - 20 sheilds = 80 gold on turn 23, Bank - 20 sheilds = 80 gold on turn 34. Total: 240 Gold.
city 3: Granary - 12 sheilds = 48 gold on turn 8, Harbor - 8 sheilds = 32 gold on turn 21, Galley - 12 sheilds = 48 gold on turn 26. Total: 128 Gold.
So, the total for these 3 cities, over 35 turns is 528 Gold. Which is a total average of 15.09 gold per turn )for the 3 cities) and 5.03 gold per turn per city. So, again for an empire of 20 cities, that would be an average of 101 Gold per turn spent on T-rushing. But, the gold wouldn't be spent all on the same turn.
code:
Turn 8 - 64 + 48 = 112 Gold.
Turn 14 - 80 Gold.
Turn 20 - 80 Gold.
Turn 21 - 32 Gold.
Turn 23 - 80 Gold.
Turn 26 - 48 Gold.
Turn 32 - 48 Gold.
Turn 34 - 80 Gold.
Again, over an empire of 20 cities, you would have turns with little or no T-rushing and turns with a lot of T-rushing.
Now, granted, even with the extra cashflow from CFC, we don't have 101 gpt to spend on this. So we have to prioritize our spending. THis will depend on several factors: Sheild cost of build, Impact, Production Capacities & Ability of the city to change WF to get other benifits the turn of T-rushing, like higher Food surplus and/or higher trade. Also, there will be builds that we are going to want to rush sooner, like courthouses in over corrupt cities, that will take a larger chunk of these funds.
Also, we will, at sometime, be upgrading units, so those costs also have to be added into our overall finacial planning. And T-rushing has to be planned, especially over the long haul, because WF, growth planning and production capacities will be effected by what is rushed where and when.
Things we need to ask are:
How much of a cash reserve are we going to allow ourselves? If we have an emergency and need to change builds and rush units, how much of a cushion are we going to allow ourselves.
Funding approvals - how are we going to accomplish this with all of the other various things going on? With the current method of turn orders, waiting until the last minute to approve a Rush/T-rush is not going to work. Do we make up a requested Rush/T-rush list and have it done several turns in advance? How much in advance are we going to have to look ahead with this? What kind of deadlines are we going to require ourselves for our cash expenditures?
These things and more need to be worked out now, so that we are ready to start doing these things when we get to that point.
The discussion is open.
MoI E_T
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:33
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E_T, what about "short-rushing"?
This is used to minimize shield waste in cities not producing 5spt, or 10spt, and reducing build times accordingly.
Say you have a city producing 9spt, building a marketplace. I'm using a simplified example, but bear with me.
Left to itself, the city will build the market in 12 turns, reaching 99 shields on the 11th turn, and wasting 8 shields the following turn.
Ah, but if on the 2nd turn (when the city has 9s built up), you switch the build to a worker, and rush it (4g) and then switch back to a market, the marketplace will complete in a total of 11 turns, with zero waste.
-Arrian
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:33
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Actually, I had used the T-rush system, when I had the funds. Unfortunately, we had so many Corrupt cities in that game, that most on my funds when to getting Courthouses rushed, at large sums of cash. I don't think that we'll have that kind of problem in this game.
As for the shortrush system, it will require planning the cash outlays even further in advance than the other system, to an extent. Likely, we will try to use both systems as much as the funding allows us.
Also, in my example, a couple of builds had and odd number of sheilds left to build, like Arrian had discribed. For extra credit, can anyone figure out those builds??
MoI E_T
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:33
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I've been thinking about getting some help, but the current atmosphere of mostly lurkers hasn't been too much conducive to having someone that would fit the bill.
Mainly, I need Organizational and Inforamational help. I need someone who has skills with a Drawing Program (i.e. Coreldraw or Photoshop, CorelDraw prefered, as I use that myself), for posting maps and spreadsheets.
I need someone that will help me to keep an updated Sim available for Public (and especially MoI office) use. They need to know how to use C3MT and the PTW Editor Programs. The reason is, I like to try to keep my sim as current as possible, with unit moves and tile improvements, especially the Bonus Grassland tiles that we do uncover when we clear a jungle or forrest. These are especially important, as some of the future Worker plans do change because of these things.
I mainly need help keeping people, especially the Consuls, informed of the general and specific plans for not only the nation as a whole, but also the individual cities as they mesh into that final whole. I need someone who can meet with me at various times in chat, so that we can get things further set up. Chating does take time, but then, it's better than exchanging lots of e-mails/PM's.
Some of these things, I can help teach, because I've had to learn to do them for myself. It's not hard, but just frustrating at times, when there is so much to do. Some of them, I can provide, like the sims and the basic maps.
MoI E_T
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:33
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my last fully updated sim is in the MoI thread. First, download it and play the turns up to this one, workers, Mil units and other things. Then go to the files section and download the C3MT and patch it up to full. You can play around with it somewhat, to see how you can move a unit and change things in the cities, from the sim saves. Just make sure that you save as a diiferent name, so you don't overwrite the original Sim file and mess up things that you've already done.
I'll see if I can get the map updated, to the present day, If I can get my incoming e-mail to get here (damn e-mail virus flooding my incoming mail server at Earthlink). Then I'll send it to you with some instructions as to what to do.
Oh, you might want to brush off your excel program (I know, you hate math), but it gives you something that you can look at, even though it's not fully updated, you should see some of the repeatitive things in like Poly, Lux and a few other cities.
I've sent you a few things via e-mail, I just hope that they don't bounce with the Yahoo size limits (IIRC, they are bigger than hotmail's).
E_T
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:33
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O.k, first off, some quick and diryt results from the sim that I have up. With the current configuration of cities and populations, IF I have AP's size up to 9 (adding the settlers & workers) AND I just abandon Poly, the palace will move there. Size 8 or less goes to Karina, as it's currently size 6. Now, one factor is the number of cities/population surrounding the intended jump site. This factor is still fairly small.
Now, we could rush buy the Granary in Ap now, BUT, we should wait just a bit, for 2 reasons:
1) save a little bit of cash - we rush it in a little while but not right now.
2) the need for specialist/lux in AP.
Currently, AP is limited to size 5 because of the WW. Because of the Corruption, the lux slider has no real effect below 20%. Now, with the Irrigation around AP, I can get it up to size 5 in 10 turns, without the Granary (and size 6 in 13 turns). So we can save a little bit of money and rush it later. But doing so right now would be wasteful. We should wait on that rush for a little bit.
MoI E_T
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:33
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quote:
Example #1 : This assumes that production capabilities (WF, tile improvements & pop levels) stay the same over time.
city 1: Lib - 10 turns, Market - 13 turns, Aquduct - 13 turns. Total: 36 turns.
city 2: Uni - 16 turns, Aqua - 10 turns, Bank - 12 turns. Total: 38 turns.
city 3: Granary - 10 turns, Harbor - 14 turns, Galley - 6 turns. Total: 30 turns.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The throughput rush would occur when the builds get to 2 turns left, shortening the total build time by 1 turn each city/build.
Example #2: same builds with T-rushing times
code:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
city 1: Lib - 9 turns, Market - 12 turns, Aquduct - 12 turns. Total: 33 turns.
city 2: Uni - 15 turns, Aqua - 9 turns, Bank - 11 turns. Total: 35 turns.
city 3: Granary - 9 turns, Harbor - 13 turns, Galley - 5 turns. Total: 27 turns. |
...
quote:
Also, in my example, a couple of builds had and odd number of sheilds left to build, like Arrian had discribed. For extra credit, can anyone figure out those builds?? |
Well, based on the build times, it appears that city1 is at 8spt, city2 is at 10spt, and city3 is at 6spt.
City1 builds library. 8spt*10 = 80. Perfect.
City1 builds marketplace. 8spt*13 = 104. 4 shields wasted. Shortrush to temple on the 7th turn (16g), build completes in 12 turns, zero waste.
City1 builds aqueduct. Same as market.
City2 is 10spt, no shortrushing needed.
City3 builds granary. 6spt * 10 = 60. Perfect.
City3 builds harbor. 6spt*14 = 84. 4 shields wasted. Shortrush to catapult on the 3rd turn (8g) and the build completes in 13 turns without waste.
City3 builds galley. 6spt*5 = 30 shields. No waste.
I'd like to help, but along the lines of what donegeal originally proposed: give me a city and I'll work on it. Preferably a stable city w/o too much WF shuffling.
I'm not much for spreadsheets, and I've never used C3MT (I assume that's graphmos' multitool?). So I may not be particularly useful, I know.
-Arrian
Last edited by Arrian on 04-02-2004 at 02:00
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:33
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[EDIT]
Without any assistance, it will get up to size 6 in 13 turns. I can shave 4 turns off of that, if I add a worker on the turn it gets to size 4. When it grows to size 3 in two turns, it will have 5 FPT, and at size 4, four turns after it will have 6 FPT (wasted food) so still four turns. Then at size 5, it will have 7 FPT and will again grow in 3 turns. Then, at size 6 (If I don;t have to use a specialist because of WW), it will have 8 FPT (wasted again) and will grow in 3 more turns. Size 7 to 8 is the one that is going to take longer, because of the larger granary size AND the need for specialist will start slowing the growth AND the fact that I won;t have any more Irrigated grassland for it to also use. Somewhere in here will be the point that I'll be adding the workers for the palace move.
[/edit]
I was wanting the Granary in place to help speed it to higher pop levels after the palace is moved. I want that city with as much production as possible. I was planning to use specialist to help keep the pop happy while it builds other things. It willl be a major building center, with the Iron and the Hills and such. I had planned to have the workers move from specialist to tile work as the different happiness Improvements were to come online.
I'm going to try to target the Palace move with the completion of the Granary.
MoI E_T
Last edited by E_T on 04-02-2004 at 04:51
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:33
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Oh, Arrian gets the No Prize for extra credit....
[EDIT] Yes, C3MT is the Multi tool that is made by Gramphos.[/edit]
E_T
Last edited by E_T on 04-02-2004 at 04:55
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30-01-2004 16:30
I like it.
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