31-01-2004 00:03									#1
	q. about tech devaluation Increase Your PM Length

If I kill a civ that has already researched advances I haven't, then is the tech still marked down, or does it go back to 100%? I'm pretty far behind in a current game and am quickly moving on a far advanced civ, and want to know if I should leave them one burg for awhile.

	31-01-2004 00:31									#2
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When you're about to kill the last burg, just offer peace in exchange for all their tech.

	31-01-2004 00:33									#3
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara When you're about to kill the last burg, just offer peace in exchange for all their tech.

sometimes that is impossible. you can't trade for techs "down the line".

like, you cant make peace for literacy without having writing.

	31-01-2004 00:37									#4
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well, I might get one tech out of them, but they won't give me any more, techs at the end of the medieval age, beginning of industrial. On emperor.

	31-01-2004 00:37									#5
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And if this is later in the game (say, the industrial era), the tech costs get high enough that civs will refuse to cough up the tech, even if they're down to 1 city.

I'd be interested to see the answer to your question, sleepy.

-Arrian

	31-01-2004 01:37									#6
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I played a recent game as the Japanese and I had the Byzantines (many more techs than I) down to just 1 city. They wouldn't surrender any techs to save their own skin.

All I'm saying is Don't count on extorting too many techs from a 'whiped' civ. It might happen, but don't count on it.

As for the original question: I don't know. In the aforementioned game, the Byz's had Printing Press that they'd sooner die than reveal. Interesting thing is that no one else had it. I wound-up researching it myself (can't remember how much it took, ie. was it full or reduced price). I did manage to get lots of gold from other civs for it though.

Steven

	31-01-2004 02:49									#7
	Re: q. about tech devaluation Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: asleepathewheel asked: If I kill a civ that has already researched advances I haven't, then is the tech still marked down, or does it go back to 100%? I'm pretty far behind in a current game and am quickly moving on a far advanced civ, and want to know if I should leave them one burg for awhile.

Is there a downside to leaving them 1 town? If you can't think of an important reason, I'd definitely leave them surviving, just to get the research discount on techs. If they trade you some techs alonb the way, that's even better. Once you've caught up in techs, you can then put them out of their misery.

To your question: I suspect that as soon as you wipe out an enemy Civ, you lose the associated research discount, as it is calculated using the number of Civs you are 'aware' of who possess a tech at any point in time. Specifically what would change is the discount fraction, which is proportional to the number of encountered Civs who have the tech / total number of encountered Civs. Therefore the discount could go up or down when a Civ is eliminated, as both the numerator and denominator decrease by one.

Just speculating - bvc

	31-01-2004 03:02									#8
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Interesting question and I do not have the answer. It would be good to know. Do a count an see what is shows. When you are starting a new tech. Check each turn and tally the beakers and judge the turns. Once you know everyone has the tech you can see what the new discount is in beakers. Then kill then and see if that changes or not.
I am just starting a fresh game now so it will be a long time before I can try it.
Actually I expect to not be in a position to kill any body as this is going to be a sid game. But who knows, for sure I will be able to see everyone already having what ever tech I am researching.

	31-01-2004 03:30									#9
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And the answer is (drum roll please)...........


Just as bvoncranium suggested, when you kill a civ, the game acts as if they were never around, and the price is divided by the remaining civs with the tech. Thus, the price goes up.




(looks like I'll be keeping the gringos around for awhile)

	31-01-2004 03:46									#10
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Interesting. So there is a reason to keep civs with techs you don't have around.

Would that also mean that eliminating a technologically inferior civ helps you catch up to the tech leaders? After all, isn't the cost of researching a tech you don't have affected by the ratio of number of civs with tech to the number of remaining civs?

	31-01-2004 04:00									#11
	Re: Re: q. about tech devaluation Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by bvoncranium Is there a downside to leaving them 1 town?

In my game, If I hadn't taken Constantinople (thier last city) then it's quite possible that the other two that I had taken would've fliped back. I couldn't afford that, so I opted for annihilation. Thus, re-increasing the cost for their techs.

Steven

	31-01-2004 05:57									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Tall Stranger Interesting. So there is a reason to keep civs with techs you don't have around. Would that also mean that eliminating a technologically inferior civ helps you catch up to the tech leaders? After all, isn't the cost of researching a tech you don't have affected by the ratio of number of civs with tech to the number of remaining civs?

Not sure if it helps you more or thm. My guess is it helps you more. The leader gets no help research a new tech. What is the rate of depreciation as each civ learns a given tech?
If it went 25% off for the second and 50% for the 3rd and 75% after that and you were behind 4 civs, you gain the most.
If you are 2nd or 3rd, you probably want to axe them.

	01-02-2004 02:12									#13
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It's a ratio of how many civs your aware of having the techs over how many civs your aware of.

If your in first place with 3 AI civs each in a noticeable position, it's marginal advenous for you to let #3 and #4 keep one city especally if it's on an isolated small island well off the coast, because elimating either one would increase the discount #2 would get. Granted wiping out #3 would make it more expensive for current #4, but #2 in techs is more of an issue than #4.

In my own current game, it also would have been a big pain to wipe out #3 rather than let them keep a city because that city was a one tile island with rubber and I would have had to research the bypassed Amphious Warfare tech to build marines.

	01-02-2004 02:31									#14
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I have not tried to figure the discount out before, but I am playing a game now that I figured it was worth the effort.

So I looked at the Ref chart 1.03 and it said that Iron Working is cost of 6 and so is Philosophy.

The map is std so the rate is 240.

Level is Sid so the factor is 4.

If I have all of that correct both have the same nominal cost.

6 X 240 = 1440

1440/4 = 360 beakers.

I was doing 55 beakers a turn and it said I need 8 turns?

7 turns should be 385, so what gives.

I have contact with Celts that already know at least Philosophy. I did not notice if they know IW, but probably.
I have contact and a war with Korea and I would expect they know both, but I can't be sure. I have yet to see any swords, but that does not mean they don't have them back in the core.

So I would expect at least a slight discount to either techs. I went to IW and it was 7 turns, which suggest a discount.

So what am I missing here? Is the chart wrong on the cost? Std rules, no mods.

	01-02-2004 03:18									#15
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I'm a bit suprised that this hasn't been hammered out (or if it has been, it hasn't been put in an obvious place) Would be very useful information to know exactly what is going on.

	01-02-2004 04:35									#16
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I checked the editor and it is 6 for both techs.

	01-02-2004 04:44									#17
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quote: asleepathewheel's consternation: I'm a bit suprised that this hasn't been hammered out (or if it has been, it hasn't been put in an obvious place) Would be very useful information to know exactly what is going on.

Here's an excerpt from a post that explains the research cost math. I retrieved this from Apolyton or civfanatics when I first applied the 1.29f patch last year; I apologize that I don't know who originated the post so I can't give the proper attribution.

The formula presented below is accurate for PTW. It is probably also good for C3C, once the additional difficulty levels (e.g. Sid) have been added.
Hope this helps - bvc

---> from the original post:
This is the formula for research cost for v1.29f.

Research Cost = [MM * [10*COST * (1 - N/[CL*1.75])]/(CF * 10)] - Research done so far

Research Cost and research done so far are in gold.

Square brackets indicate truncation /rounddown

MM = map modifier(tech rate on world sizes tab in the editor)
Tiny 160
Small 200
Standard 240
Large 320
Huge 400

CF = AI cost factor(as on the difficulty tab in the editor)
For the purposes of the research cost formula, CF has a maximum value of 10.
Chieftain 10
Warlord 10
Regent 10
Monarch 9
Emperor 8
Deity 6

COST = technology cost as on the civilization advances tab in the editor.

N = number of civs on the diplomacy screen that have discovered the tech.

CL = number of civs left in the game

There is only one part of the formula that varies during the game: (1 - N/[CL*1.75]). There are two ways in which you can increase it to lower tech cost:
1. Increase N by exploring and buying comms to add civs to your diplomacy screen.
2. Decrease CL by killing civs.

NB. This formula is relevant for research cost of the AI civs, not just the human player. If you are interested in the research cost of a specific technology for a specific AI civ, N refers to the number of civs on that specific AI civ's diplomacy screen that have discovered that specific tech. In general, there are two ways in which you can increase AI tech cost:
3. Keep N low by not selling comms to AI civs.
4. Keep CL high by not killing civs.
And technically...
5. Keep N low by not getting techs yourself.

Obviously points 2. and 4. are contradictory so choose whichever fits your playing style. Personally I choose point 2.

	01-02-2004 11:01									#18
	Got spare money?

Now that is exactly what I was looking for.

Thanks

	01-02-2004 11:58									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Demi = 7
Sid = 4

Thanks, now I will have to recalc to see how it comes out. Too late for meto do that much thinking today.

	02-02-2004 03:38									#20
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Anyone one to test out this xls to see if I have it impemented correctly?

I waste a bunch of time trying to figure out how to use excel.
It seems tobe correct, but I am not sure.

Attachment: tech_beakers.zip
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

	02-02-2004 03:39									#21
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BTW I zipped it becasue I was too lazy to figure a valid name to use.

	02-02-2004 11:39									#22
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quote: asleepathewheel sed: Now that is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks

At your service

This is just one of the hundreds of game mechanics details that I went hunting for after getting my Ottoman butt toasted in my introductory game of Civ3PTW. I understand that the developers intentionally describe many aspects of the game in vague (and sometimes misleading) qualitative terms. Whatever the reasons for not documenting the game math, I think it doesn't serve motivated (obsessive) players very well. What's so wrong about wanting to know the specific rules of the game so that you have the best chance of winning?!
I'm glad that there are dedicated (obsessive) players out there who take the time to verify and post what the game really does.

Cheers - bvc

	03-02-2004 00:54									#23
	Got spare money?

Well I am not sure about how I implemented the formula now or the formula itself.

The first few techs I played seemed about right. I just started Lit.
Lit is 10
Sid is 4
Std map is 240
This is 600 beakers in a straight (240*10)/4
5 civs left in the game and I know 3 with knowledge of Lit.
I am making 33 shields.
The number I get in the spreadsheet is 404. This seems low, but is about 1/3 off. This may be correct for 3 civs, I don't know.

Worse the game says I have 24 turns to learn it? 33 times 24 is nearly 800?

Anyone got a clue as too what I have wrong here?
The attached one is slightly claned up from the orig one.

Attachment: tech_beakers.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	05-02-2004 06:03									#24
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Ok I found my error. I typed a + instead of an * after the MM. It seems very close now. I have not been able to tell if any changes have been made to the formula.

I found a ready to go one on CFC that matches the putput of mine. I should have look around first, but at least I got to learn more about excel.