03-02-2004 05:12									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber So do you just euthanize all the elderly?? It would seem to be the logical extension if you only put the amount of effort into people that you expect to get back. That would be a scary society

But not an unprecedented one. Eskimos, for example, abandoned their elderly in the snow to die when they couldn't keep up.

But a jump straight to that approach would be expecting too much of modern society. So, I just plan on euthanising myself when I reach that point, to set a good example.

quote: Originally posted by Azazel that's that stupid 'deaf culture' argument. Personally, I think people should be persecuted for causing such disabilities upon their children.

Agreed. It's roughly equivalent to refusing medical attention for a child on the basis that blood transfusions are sacreligious.

	03-02-2004 05:57									#92
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quote: But not an unprecedented one. Eskimos, for example, abandoned their elderly in the snow to die when they couldn't keep up.

The proper term is Inuit.

Secondly, they only did so because of the extreme living conditions. Can we say the same in our comfortable chairs, and insulated buildings?

	03-02-2004 06:15									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi The proper term is Inuit.

Inuit is a term for some groups of north american eskimos. Eskimo is a valid and more general term.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Secondly, they only did so because of the extreme living conditions. Can we say the same in our comfortable chairs, and insulated buildings?

They did so because supporting their elderly would have required a large proportion of their excess resources as a society. Those excess resources were minimal compared to those available in more temperate climates, so you're right - the practice was a result of the extreme living conditions.

However, it can also work the other way. As more means become available of caring for the elderly - an arsenal of drugs, an army of doctors and nurses to administer them - eventually the effort involved will tax even the profligate resources of our society.

	03-02-2004 06:26									#94
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Jellybean, are you proposing we live like uneducated barbarians?

	03-02-2004 06:43									#95
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When those uneducated barbarians have some worthwhile ideas, I do propose that we assimilate those aspects of their lifestyle into ours.

For example, if aborigines ate kangaroo and found it tasty, I'm all in favour of tucking into this cheap and nutritious meat. On the other hand, I do not advocate dancing around with sticks to make the rain come, since it doesn't seem to work.

	03-02-2004 07:33									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Thrawn05 Let's see I have: A messed up lung from surgery have it collasped (IE: PAIN) A right lung that's heading the same way (PAIN) Three hurneated discs (PAIN) Due to the pain I barely move, and muscles are contracted from lack of use (PAIN) I also have allergies to anything that grows outside basicly and have SinuSides. Oh and ADD. FUN!

I like how you almost forgot to add ADD.

	03-02-2004 07:39									#97
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quote: When those uneducated barbarians have some worthwhile ideas,

Yeah, but leaving people to die isn't exactly a "worthwhile idea".

	03-02-2004 07:50									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Why do so many have allergies and asthma these days. Back when I was a young-un, way back in the 60s, I knew one kid who had asthma. Now it seems like half the kids get it. Pollution. Modified foods. Chemical flavour enhancers. Are we creating a world that we're allergic to?

Actually there seems to be some correlation to kids that live in extremely clean environments. (IMO allergies are like cancers, a related group of diseases that share some characteristics but which are caused by a wide variety of things.) When I was a kid it always seemed that it was the kid with the antiseptic type A mom who had allergies. Those of us with little to no parenting never seemed to have any problems as we waded into swamps and had mud fights etc. I believe the theory about the extremely clean environment posits that a lack of expected (by the body) exposure to germs, dust, dirt, pollen etc. causes the bodies immune system to kick itself up a notch. Allergies are simply immune hyper-responses IIRC.

	03-02-2004 08:06									#99
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Let's cut this welfare business and use the state militia to thin out the homeless population.

And I hate those trailer parks all over the place; get rid of em. They upset the view from my kitchen nook.

	03-02-2004 08:18									#100
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Yes Sikander.

But is the antiseptic mom caused by the allergies, or the allergies caused by the antiseptic mom?

(I think the latter. But I'm just raising a question.)

	03-02-2004 08:20									#101
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Yeah, but leaving people to die isn't exactly a "worthwhile idea".

It was for them, and it is for us, under some circumstances.

	03-02-2004 08:25									#102
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quote: It was for them, and it is for us, under some circumstances.

Ah yes. It's alright to murder, as long as you have some circumstances met!

EDIT: Added in the rolleyes and figured that some sick loon out there isn't fazed yet. So I remind you that society is dynamic, and today the circumstance might be "they're old"...but, tomorrow it might be "they're black" or "they're buddhist" or something.

	03-02-2004 08:40									#103
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quote: Originally posted by JellyBean When those uneducated barbarians have some worthwhile ideas, I do propose that we assimilate those aspects of their lifestyle into ours.

	03-02-2004 08:50									#104
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Ah yes. It's alright to murder, as long as you have some circumstances met!

Yay, you get it!

quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell

Oh, you don't.

Basically, I'm advocating a morality which states that whatever is best for society is 'good'. If I'm too old/ill/stupid to make a net contribution to society, then the cessation of my existence is 'good'.

No more posts from me for a while - gotta go to the gym.

	03-02-2004 08:57									#105
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Congratulations Jellybean -- you are now officially quoted!!

	03-02-2004 09:01									#106
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I see, the society overrules the individual. You alone are nothing.

Crush the individual! All work to the Great Commune!

*sigh*

	03-02-2004 09:04									#107
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Yes Sikander. But is the antiseptic mom caused by the allergies, or the allergies caused by the antiseptic mom? (I think the latter. But I'm just raising a question.)

Yea, that's my opinion too, but I only noted the correlation as AFAIK there hasn't been any proof one way or the other.

	03-02-2004 09:53									#108
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quote: Originally posted by JellyBean It was for them, and it is for us, under some circumstances.

Pretty sure that you're essential aren't you? Has it crossed your mind that maybe, just maybe, you're not? What exactly is it that you do that's so worthwhile? Are we certain that you're worth the resources needed to keep you going? Maybe we oughta better check it out.

Anyway, I'm waaaaayyyyy more essential than you are, so I guess I get to determine if society needs for you to go away.

	03-02-2004 09:57									#109
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell But is the antiseptic mom caused by the allergies, or the allergies caused by the antiseptic mom?

I was born with my allergies (along with my other medical problems) . For example, when I was young I ate something with nuts. And my face would swell, have trouble breathing, etc. After a few times my parents realized it was the nuts doing it and my doctor agreed. Based on what was said earlier, the so called "allergie" kid has an "antiseptic mom" based on nessesity. If the mother was not "antiseptic" it would not give a livible environment for their child. However the degree to what antiseptic means can be argued. The mother in that article went overboard. You only need to do something like that if the kid was like a bubble boy.

Here are some examples of how you "earn" an allergy. I had a friend who had an older sister. The older sister got a cat, then a couple years later my friend was born. He grew up with the cat and was allergic to it. Now you can not argue being WITHDRAWN FROM CATS caused thed allergy, he was around it all the time. IMO it is being overly exposed to something that causes an allergy. Another example is myself with my nut allergy. My mom went to Japan while pregnant with me, and since beef is much more expensive there (and her dislike of fish) she ate A LOT of nuts to get the nessasary protein, constantly for like 2-3 weeks. I find that a strange and odd since now I have a serious nut allergy.

	03-02-2004 12:16									#110
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Dr Strangelove

	03-02-2004 12:19									#111
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I Am Jeff or smoking or drugs.

	03-02-2004 16:48									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Pretty sure that you're essential aren't you? Has it crossed your mind that maybe, just maybe, you're not? What exactly is it that you do that's so worthwhile? Are we certain that you're worth the resources needed to keep you going? Maybe we oughta better check it out. Anyway, I'm waaaaayyyyy more essential than you are, so I guess I get to determine if society needs for you to go away.

This is exactly the problem with applying any social utility system - who decides whether someone is worthwhile for society or not, and how?

Until there's a magical system for predicting someone's future contribution to society, I think it makes sense not to kill anyone except in the most clear-cut cases - such as when someone's continued existence requires major sacrifices in the lives of thousands of others. [1] [2] In those cases, most people would probably feel less guilty about it because it's simply a matter of refusing to make sacrifices for them rather than actively killing them.[3]

[1] Being denied peanuts is not, imho, a major sacrifice.

[2] Spending your life building 0.1% of a rocket so that a heart patient can get an extra decade of life expectancy free falling in orbit, however, is.

[3] Otoh, I don't make any moral distinction between killing someone by action or inaction.

P.S. Yes, I have considered that my existence might not be worthwhile. I decided that it was - but in case it wasn't, I planned that my organs would be donated so that they would at least do some good.

	03-02-2004 17:28									#113
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Ben Kenobi is deaf?