15-02-2004 02:19									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

On the Fort/Barricade semantics issue:
To me the Barricade represents a moat/dragons teeth (anti-tank obstacles)/minefield. Since they are only a delay, they are not effective unless they are covered by fields of fire. Therefore requiring a Fort is reasonable -- though it would be even better if the Fort came with its own at-least-minimal garrison.

	15-02-2004 02:20									#32
	Remove this text

Is the pix a bmp? Convert it to jpeg if so and it will be small enough to post. I resize to 800 resolution and save as jpeg and have no problems.

	15-02-2004 02:34									#33
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

(deleted)

	17-02-2004 01:48									#34
	Suffering from ads?

OK Folks I finally figured how to get the Screenies to work


Here is an example of how Barricades can be useful:

I am on a Continent which I control approx 50% of . Resources are aplenty but its quite spartan when it comes to luxuries. The Celts have Beaten me to spices, but their borders haven't expanded so I land on the one spice not covered by the celt border and hope for the best. Time passes and I eek out a second city, wishing to expand N-E, but this was not to be. I find out that the Celts are at war with the Hittites and are infiltrating to the north with significant amount of troops. I place two musketmen in their way and intend to build a fort to stop this transgression.

Attachment: barricades-1.1.jpg
This has been downloaded 177 time(s).

Last edited by Mad Bomber on 17-02-2004 at 01:57

	17-02-2004 02:14									#35
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Its now 100 years later, my boders have expanded and my goals have become quite clear: to protect the spice fields at all costs, I have completed a fortress to the east of New Albuquerque and am starting one just south of the same city. Both will eventually become barricades which will prevent a one turn attack on the city. Meanwhile the celts are getting a little froggy.

Attachment: construction starts.jpg
This has been downloaded 157 time(s).

	17-02-2004 02:48									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Its now 50 years later and the Celts have attacked. They picked off my lone worker north of New Buffalo and sent a SOD into the tile SE of New Alburquerque. The SOD was counterattacked with knights, MIE's and muskets. Only the single Knight survived (of a force over 20) Reinforcemets are due to land soon including some much needed artilley units (trebuchets to be exact)

Attachment: war with the celts.jpg
This has been downloaded 164 time(s).

	17-02-2004 03:20									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I try to get Knights Templar wonder as all those free crusaders are great for fort building, which saves tieing up your workers as much.

I usually get about 15 to 20 crusaders from an average game, and if you have lots of borders to barricade they can really be an asset. Follow them around with some workers to build roads and the barricades themselves.

I usually keep the crusaders right into the modern age until I dont think Ill need any more forts building

	17-02-2004 21:20									#38
	Got spare money?

Mad Bomber,

Interesting. Guess this is why we look at strategies. We all have different styles.

Comments:
1. GIF file types are usually clearer than JPG files for images.

2. The barriade stategy might be an effective way to get the AI to declare war where you want the happiness boast from selfdefense.

3. Interesting that you were attacked when only 2/4 of defending tiles were barricaded. Thus the cost of baiting AI into war is lower as it is not necessary to complete full barricade system.

4. Why are barricades such a war trigger? Aren't they only a 25% defensive boast?

5. Please explain your strategy.
WestContinent: america, i.e. you; 3 other nations
East Continent: you with 2 cities, and 7 other nations.
Why going for EastC, more challenging?

6. For 490AD, you have democracy and large empire. What level are you playing at?

7. How did you get so much $CASH????? And now that you have it, why aren't you investing it????


Questions:
Strat Q#1-- why get spice at current location vs going straight North with shorter supply lines than going North East?
Strat Q#2-- why go to EastC where you are outnumbered 7:1 vs staying on WestC where you are 1:5 and don't need to build as much Navy?
Strat Q#3-- if you want to expand, what is preventing you from making a military alliance with your WestC nations vs purple?'
Strat Q#4-- if going to EastC, why not military alliance vs orange with short supply lines? What is gained by longer supply lines to spices?
Strat Q#5-- why aren't you building barricades by purple to incite them to attack you for happiness boast?


That's enough for now.

== PF

	17-02-2004 22:23									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Ah, this is great stuff - just what I needed to understand this a little better. Much appreciated.

My next game will definitely include fortresses/barricades and possibly the Knights Templar (good point that).

	18-02-2004 09:20									#40
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hey, it works

A line on new continent making 2 sides of a square does nothing. BUT start building 2 fortresses and immediate war.

Ah shucks.

PF

	18-02-2004 16:43									#41
	Remove this text

Nice.........another way to trigger war when you want it.

	18-02-2004 23:24									#42
	Put an end to popups!

I agree

The AI takes the mickey a bit when it comes to trespass - you ask them to leave and they ignore you, yet when you are asked to leave their territory if you don't move you get booted

Life is sooooooooooo unfair!

Seriously, though, the barricade method is the only way to resolve this...

/relurk

	19-02-2004 05:50									#43
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by anarchie isthmus: Narrow part of the breast of a fish that projects forward between the gill chambers. And uh, only one i. 'isthmi'. Teach thyself. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bi...ntry%3D%2325085

Correct definition and spelling - although isthmuses is also acceptable!

	19-02-2004 19:24									#44
	Put an end to popups!

Here's something I like to do that's kind of funny.

It's when I have a large amount of territory with a bunch of AI civs on one side, and choke point on the other, and beyond the choke point is a lot of unsetteled land. The AI will start to send a bunch of escorted settlers strolling across my territory heading for the choke point, and just before they get there, I seal it off with one of my units

As soon as I do, they all start heading back to where they came from

Then I'll open it back up, and they all do a 180 and start marching toward the vacant land again. Of course, I cut them off again and repeat the whole process. It's just a fun little dance we do to pass the time.

	20-02-2004 01:04									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by planetfall Mad Bomber, Interesting. Guess this is why we look at strategies. We all have different styles. Comments: 1. GIF file types are usually clearer than JPG files for images.

OK, I'll try to remember that next time.

quote: 2. The barriade stategy might be an effective way to get the AI to declare war where you want the happiness boast from selfdefense. 3. Interesting that you were attacked when only 2/4 of defending tiles were barricaded. Thus the cost of baiting AI into war is lower as it is not necessary to complete full barricade system.

Could be, but now that I think about it, A lot of the aggressiveness must have come from my culture bombard of the Celtic city as well as the fact that they were at war with the Hittites who I was trying to protect (light blue to the North)

quote: 4. Why are barricades such a war trigger? Aren't they only a 25% defensive boast?

A lot of troops even without a barricade system seems to intimidate the AI, the Barricades are just there to make sure you can get the first shot if they attack.

quote: 5. Please explain your strategy. WestContinent: america, i.e. you; 3 other nations East Continent: you with 2 cities, and 7 other nations. Why going for EastC, more challenging?

No. I am in the process of controlling my continent, but I need the spices to control WW (my continent only has 3 and I am playing a load of money, tech, and resources in trading for luxuries. I saw this open spot and made a play for it if it was not for the barricades I probably would have been kicked back into the ocean before reinforcements had arrived.

quote: 6. For 490AD, you have democracy and large empire. What level are you playing at?

Regent with AP on (Conquest only game)

quote: 7. How did you get so much $CASH????? And now that you have it, why aren't you investing it????

Cash isn't that difficult to aquire on Regent. I basically have three cores set up that have most or all city improvements (available in the Middle ages) which makes quite a bit of cash and research. I could spend more, and will if I have to, but with a good tech lead (3 over the next CIV) why bother? It could be more but I set up the Bleepin FP too far away from my core and then mobved the palace As a result my cas inflow dropped from nearly 800gpt to a little over 300 gpt. I am also selling off non essential tech and outdated resources as well (and essential tech and valuable resources to my allies)

quote: Questions: Strat Q#1-- why get spice at current location vs going straight North with shorter supply lines than going North East?

I wanted those COWS. In the end its not relevent wether I had built the second city North or North East the only real objective was to retain the spices and to make sure I have a toe hold to put more forces onto the continent

quote: Strat Q#2-- why go to EastC where you are outnumbered 7:1 vs staying on WestC where you are 1:5 and don't need to build as much Navy?

It became quite clear once I had scouted the continent that it would be necessary to aquire more luxuries so I had built up a considerable navy.

quote: Strat Q#3-- if you want to expand, what is preventing you from making a military alliance with your WestC nations vs purple?'

Right now I have an Alliance with the purple (either India or Iroqouis) , but in time they got their due.

quote: Strat Q#4-- if going to EastC, why not military alliance vs orange with short supply lines? What is gained by longer supply lines to spices?

The Netherlands were also one of my allies, and were helping me to control; the Spanish (along with the Hittites but then the Celts declared war and the world got real dirty, real quick like.

quote: Strat Q#5-- why aren't you building barricades by purple to incite them to attack you for happiness boast?

I did, but I felt that the celtic adventure would be a better example of the use of barricades.

quote: That's enough for now. == PF

Here is the final Screen shot of the Celtic adventure:
In this final shot I have captured the celtic city and am awaiting approx 50 reinforcements due in the next couple of turns. Some future work on the defensive works remain, but I would start to end teh defensive phase of this war shortly and begin an offensive aimed at the heart of the Celtic core.

	23-02-2004 16:38									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Confirmation.

I played a few games this weekend and the one that really caught my attention and wasn't abondoned was a classic that confirmed the fortress/barricade baiting method.

I had a nice start where me and two AI's were on one half of an archipelago and 4 or 5 on the other (bigger) half. In between the two was a lovely bottleneck that I decided to exploit from the start. After conquering my half of the island I started building a fortress on a mountain next to my bottleneck city and within 2 or 3 turns a huge AI army turned up and attacked me for no reason other than the fortress! We had been seriously trading and AFAIK he was gracious towards me. Fantastic I thought and set about getting a huge army barricaded on the mountain. At the moment the one serious contender to my crown is wasting his army on my mountain barricade.

Just consolidating my position before I send 100 knights into his heartlands!

	23-02-2004 21:06									#47
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I've gotta try this method. Looks like a great way to wear down an ai civ before actually invading his homeland.

	23-02-2004 21:38									#48
	Support Apolyton

MadB,

Thanks for explanations. AP explains a lot. The gist of your discussion seems to be primary continent was limited in luxuries. It does not look like you lose anything by going for landing zone on secondary continent. Unless your barricades trigger a huge dogpile.

I'm stalemated for a bit in the Industrial ages and going to use this barricade idea to see if I can force the Mayans out of democracy. Since I just pushed a city at the border to take away one of their luxuries, they should not be too friendly any more.


Let us know how your game progresses. If you could use your secondary continent location as a way to start moving down south towards the orange you should be able to have an excellent present on both continents and short supply lines between the two continents.

PF

	24-02-2004 08:50									#49
	Get a bigger avatar today!

PF:

Actually that game was an older game that I had played (which is why I did not get a screenie of the battles). In the end my misplacement of the FP led me to discard the game shortly thereafter. Eventually I would have gotten to flight and ended the Celts with an armored attack but my primary opponet was India.

Lard:

Get some arty (cats or trebuchets) to the barricade and counterattack the AI's stacks, once they run out of units, their cities will be yours for the taking. Barricades are most useful in limited stretches of land where the AI must attack.

	24-02-2004 20:26									#50
	Inflate your Upload Space

Mad Bomber,

No problem. I used to always finish games but now there are a few games I just dropped for a variety of reasons. One nervy poster asked others to finish games he was no longer interested in finishing. Now that is a bizarre concept.

ALL,
NB: barricades alone will not trigger war at Emperor level.
Bummer. However, a few barricades along with ridiculous demands for tech and a lone warrior who can't seem to remember which side of the line he is supposed to be on cause he's too busy partying instead of being about business, that does do the trick quite nicely.

PF

	25-02-2004 02:41									#51
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by planetfall Mad Bomber, barricades alone will not trigger war at Emperor level[/b]. Bummer. However, a few barricades along with ridiculous demands for tech and a lone warrior who can't seem to remember which side of the line he is supposed to be on cause he's too busy partying instead of being about business, that does do the trick quite nicely. PF

Barricades are by themselves not a guarantee that the Civ will declare war, but placing them and sufficient troops to garrison them will lower their attitude towards you and make war more likely. The Barricades make sure that If war does come you will have the upper hand. BTW Forts have a +25% defensive bonus and Barricades add an equal amount giving you a 50% defensive bonus. This bonus is added to the natural defensive bonus making Barricades extremely powerful.

	25-02-2004 03:00									#52
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

75%, boy can I count the times I could have used that. Since you posted on this thread, this is something I was not using and now will start using regularly.

I understand about a guarantee, I just wanted to clarify the situation as previously I overgeneralized and thought they could be counted on triggering a war. Now if they don't, and I want a war it's 1. demand a city or tech 50 times, 2. move a low powered unit into AI area, 3. make military look weak.

PF

	25-02-2004 03:05									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

My favorite is to put about 100 units on his border and ask for all of his gold, techs, and if they had attacked me a minimum of 2 cities. (renegotiating the peace treaty, of course) either way I tend to get what I want in the end.

	25-02-2004 03:20									#54
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: My favorite is to put about 100 units on his border and ask for all of his gold, techs, and if they had attacked me a minimum of 2 cities. (renegotiating the peace treaty, of course) either way I tend to get what I want in the end.

Has the AI ever given in to this demand before? It has done to me, but on regent, in Ptw. Will it ever do this on Emp or higher?

	25-02-2004 04:11									#55
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Not for me it has not. No matter how weak they are and how many times I have busted them. They can be tricked in to attacking you, but they do not seem to pay extortion, until you are at war and take cities or at least kill units.

	25-02-2004 10:13									#56
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Krill Has the AI ever given in to this demand before? It has done to me, but on regent, in Ptw. Will it ever do this on Emp or higher?

It is rare but I have been sucessful in getting cities by negotiating peace. I mainly play regent or lower so this tendency may be dependent upon difficulty level.

Vmxa:

What level do you play at? IIRC you are a Monarch or higher player, No?

PF:
Barricades are 50% + defensive terrain,. I mention that because it appears to me that you may have misunderstood my previous post.

Fort (25%) + Barricade (25%) =50% defensive bonus + terrain defense Bonus

	25-02-2004 11:09									#57
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber It is rare but I have been sucessful in getting cities by negotiating peace. I mainly play regent or lower so this tendency may be dependent upon difficulty level. Vmxa: What level do you play at? IIRC you are a Monarch or higher player, No?

Getting cities after beating on them is quite doable.

I play mostly Emp or Demi now. The last few games were Sid and Deity. I try to run a few games at the highes level once in awhile.

I probably will settle on Demi now, but will bounce around.

	25-02-2004 11:15									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Getting cities after beating on them is quite doable. I play mostly Emp or Demi now. The last few games were Sid and Deity. I try to run a few games at the highes level once in awhile. I probably will settle on Demi now, but will bounce around.

Hehe... I tried a game on Sid when I first got C3C. Right after I plunked down my second city I saw about 20 swords and horses go past me heading for the Greeks (around 1500BC) I retired shortly after.

	25-02-2004 20:38									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Since we are talking about forced trades, careful in pushing your reputation too high in the negative. I pushed the Mayans so far I could not get even one tech for peace. Ugh.

pf

	26-02-2004 10:30									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by planetfall Since we are talking about forced trades, careful in pushing your reputation too high in the negative. I pushed the Mayans so far I could not get even one tech for peace. Ugh. pf

How negative is that? I don't play a center-of-a-black-hole type of game so this isn't a problem for me. Tech's for peace is not a priority either, I want their gold, land, and resources. With these I will eventually pull ahead in the tech race.