03-02-2004 00:43									#1
	Global Warming Full PM-box? Change here!

In the Civ2 manual, it says:

"Global warming might occur at any time that at least nine map squares, anywhere in the world, are polluted. The probability that it will occur increases with the length of time contamination on this scale is left untreated."

Does anybody know roughly what the probability is? In the game I'm playing now, I'm on my second turn with more than nine squares polluted, and won't be able to get back under nine polluted squares until next turn (or worse, if additional squares get polluted next turn).

In the Civ2 Great Library, there is an excellent thread explaining the probability of a square becoming polluted, but doesn't say anything about the probability of global warming.

I'll confess I didn't start cleaning the pollution as soon as it started, if the polluted squares were not being worked or if the loss from pollution was only one trade arrow - it seemed more effective to use the engineers elsewhere. Then suddenly there were two turns with each adding a lot of new pollution and I was over the nine squares mentioned in the manual...

How bad is it if global warming happens? Will it necessarily make me much worse off, as it will affect all countries?

	03-02-2004 02:13									#2
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Global warming can be pretty nasty. The icecaps "melt", and a bunch of "nice" terrain like grasslands turns into swampland. Screws things up royally for a while, especially if you have "balanced" your cities so they have 0 surplus food.

As to probability of GW, I have not seen a formula for it, but it is definitely dependent on number of squares polluted and number of turns. Do you know how to daisy-chain Engineers to get something done in one turn? I suggest you double up nearby Engineers, calling them off ongoing work projects if available. Two Eng on one skull should clear it in the current turn, one precharged one will do it by themselves. Just target the minimum number of tiles to get under nine tiles this turn, then go on to the rest next turn.

	03-02-2004 02:42									#3
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I have some vague recollection that there is a cumulative frequency of some kind. That is, it could be a 1% risk on the first turn you exceed the threshold, 2% risk on the second turn, 3% on the third, etc. I don't know what the actual numbers are, but the risk is fairly substantial, and if you go very many turns with 9 or more polluted squares, you're at high risk.

The damage is very large and you're not likely to be able to repair it within the timeframe of the game. The AI civs are similarly affected, but since you use your terrain much more effectively, the impact falls mainly on you. Avoid global warming at nearly all costs.

For this reason, avoid nukes at nearly all costs.

Note that AI squares do not get polluted unless they get nuked, so you generally only have your own pollution to worry about.

	03-02-2004 04:59									#4
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Excellent question and one I hope someone has the answer to.

I would be happy to know what terrain changes to what terrain (i.e. Grassland becomes Swamp, Jungle or Desert; Plains become Swamp, Jungle or Desert; Forest becomes Jungle, Swamp or Plains; etc.)

Also, I have wondered if improving the land helps, such as irrigated plains........do they change with Global Warming same as unimproved terrain? If so, then the irrigation is lost I assume (if to swamp or jungle then obviously it is).

I have been tempted at times to send Engineers into enemy territory in MP games to clean up their pollution But that may be a little foolhardy

	03-02-2004 05:54									#5
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Terrain improvements are lost.

It can easily be worthwhile to send engineers to their deaths if they can clean up pollution that puts you at risk of global warming. It's that bad.

I don't know which terrains transform into which other terrains, but I'm reasonably sure that only coastal squares are affected. That makes little sense. But in Civ, often most of the squares are coastal, so the distinction doesn't matter too much.

	03-02-2004 06:32									#6
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I am not sure that is correct, though I am not positive, I beleive that I have had inland squares also change.

	03-02-2004 11:54									#7
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My recollection is that you get one or two messages of increasing severity - "scientists warn of global warming", that sort of thing - ahead of the actual terrain changes. Once you get the first warning, it's time to put a lot of resources into getting the pollution cleared up.

RJM at Sleeper's

	03-02-2004 14:19									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Stick around, and see how we get on with the Dirty succession game.

If we play things right, then the world could look a lot different by the end of the game.

	03-02-2004 18:55									#9
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I'm pretty sure all terrain, coastal or not, is affected.

It's a truly catastrophic event that (by definition) only happens after you've achieved a pretty high level of development. If you've got a lot of large cities, pop loss due to lack of food is a huge issue.

	03-02-2004 23:33									#10
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I have played games where for shere evil I tried nukeing the world as my space ship landed. You know, leave this one in ruins and buid a new perfect world .

Any way I have had over 75% of the land mass covered with white skulls and still recieved no global warming warnings and no melting ice caps. This may be in part to the decreaseing population due to nuke attacks but reguardless I have never acctually seen global warming occur and would say you are safe as long as the warning pop up doesn't appear.

BTW the "SUN" was completely white the last 15 turns of the game

	04-02-2004 00:19									#11
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The game level may make a difference -- lees of a chance at Prince say than Emperor.

I’ve only had it happen to me once (about three turns before the game was over.)

On the other hand, ALL the skulls go away (which is a plus for score purposes.), and a few hidden specials might just appear…

I think plains go to desert (maybe 20-25% of the spaces?) and grassland (again a significant number -- 20% looks seems to be near the amount) may go to swamp or jungle (and maybe something else, I don’t recall). the new swamp & jungle caused the irrigation & farmland to vanish -- I don’t recall about the roads, RR: I think that the irrigation & farms stayed with the deserts.

Some of your city spaces will also be affected.

	04-02-2004 00:27									#12
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The game level may make a difference -- less of a chance at Prince say than Emperor.

I’ve only had it happen to me once (about three turns before the game was over.)

On the other hand, ALL the skulls go away (which is a plus for score purposes.), and a few hidden specials might just appear…

I think plains go to desert (maybe 20-25% of the spaces?) and grassland (again a significant number -- 20% looks seems to be near the amount) may go to swamp or jungle (and maybe something else, I don’t recall). the new swamp & jungle caused the irrigation & farmland to vanish -- I don’t recall about the roads, RR: I think that the irrigation & farms stayed with the deserts.

Some of your city spaces will also be affected.

	04-02-2004 15:45									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Old n Slow On the other hand, ALL the skulls go away [...]

No, they don't.

I made a little test map, and tried a little pollution game (savegames are FW, but you can of course retest it yourself, using the map I provided if you want)...

I didn't test pollution chance, although I'm inclined to think it's simply a fixed amount of turns.

But which terrain turn into which, and with what pattern can be seen clearly.

All coastal Grassland, Plains and Desert will turn into Swamp. All coastal Forest will turn into Jungle.

In-land terrains change according to a striped pattern. Every 4 diagonal lines change, along the NW-SE diagonal. With the first and second global warming, the exact same squares will be affected. The 3rd time the pattern is offset one line down, the 4th time is the same as the 3rd again. The 5th and 6th times are again one line down from 3rd and 4th... etc.

The In-land terrains change like this:
Plains -> Desert
Grassland -> Plains
Forest -> Plains
None of the other terrains are affected.

	04-02-2004 18:58									#14
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>I'm inclined to think it's simply a fixed amount of turns.

Roughly how many turns did it take, and did you get a warning before it happened?

	04-02-2004 20:39									#15
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I can only say anything about my test game, but I counted the turns, and it's definitely a fixed amount.

I plaed the game several times, and let global warming occur several times in a row...

At the beginning of the 12th turn after I placed plenty of pollution, I got the "scientists alarmed..." warning. Five turns later the global warming actually occurred. This pattern kept repeating itself (I didn't clean anything up). Again after the global warming it took 12 turns for the warning, then another 5 for the actual global warming.

If I only put 8 pollution squares, I still got the warning at the 12th turn, but no global warming after that. However, as soon as I placed a 9th pollution square, the global warming occurred instantly (that was more than 5 turns after the warning, admittedly).

With less than 8 pollution squares, I didn't get any warning either. But when I added an 8th, I suddenly got a warning every single turn...

A lot of testing would still have to be done (not by me!), but it's not random... Of course, the map size, difficulty level, and what have you could all have some influence, but that can all be determined.

	04-02-2004 21:49									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator No, they don't.

Hmmm, I could be wrong, after all it WAS a while ago.

But I guess I'm getting close to Bloody Monk's age and may be entitled to some of his senior moments.

	07-02-2004 06:38									#17
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Researched it once comprehensively for a scenario.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=94099

	11-02-2004 14:30									#18
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Have at least 2 engineers per city (or 3 after supermarkets). Build mass transits when the tech is available. Build solar plants when they are availaible.
Depending on the size of your empire, the danger of a global warming can be reduced to zero by solar plants (at least 15, but if you've got more than 100 cities, you need 60 or more - the yellow ring with the white core will disappear).
Fight the pollution the moment, when it appears, if possible.
Again the key is trade: You'll need tons of money to rush the needed improvements - so trade, trade, trade!

	12-02-2004 00:05									#19
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quote: Originally posted by ramses II. Have at least 2 engineers per city (or 3 after supermarkets). Build mass transits when the tech is available. Build solar plants when they are availaible. Depending on the size of your empire, the danger of a global warming can be reduced to zero by solar plants (at least 15, but if you've got more than 100 cities, you need 60 or more - the yellow ring with the white core will disappear). Fight the pollution the moment, when it appears, if possible. Again the key is trade: You'll need tons of money to rush the needed improvements - so trade, trade, trade!

Except perhaps where you need to quickly install a massive RR network or quickly clear Nuke Skulls, 2 or 3 engineers per city is too much. Even one per city is probably too much.

Each engineer is a lost city or, by joining, that missing third citizen that is needed to celebrate. More and bigger cities also bring in trade arrows, don't you see.

Monk

	12-02-2004 12:27									#20
	On Solar Plants Full PM-box? Change here!

I thought some about what ramII said about building Solar Plants and whether that would help in a post Nukefest world with dozens of skulls.

I made a little test using a previous save from one of the SXN games, Soupy Sales. I opened the cheat menu and spy-bombed a handful of cities which led to some retaliation. It ended with about 68 skulls. The sun went from all white to white with red lines.

I then built everywhere factories, the solar plants, then mass transit, and watched what happened. No engineer based cleanup was done and AI engineers were destroyed anytime they tried to cleanup. And yes they did detail a few engineers for that task.

The sequence has gone as Mercator said with the ice caps melting five turns after the "Scientist warn" warning.

The one thing new that I learned is that even after building solar plants, every city had yellow pollution shields in the city screen. Even size two cities needed mass transit built to end those yellow things.

The test is continueing, but solar plants alone do not seem to have any effect on the number of skulls. Maybe some change will happen if I let it run a while longer.

The terrain changes following the ice caps melting was eye opening. Harbors become a necessity for food. Some grassland changed to plains but more became swamp and a good portion did not change. Not pretty!!

Monk

	12-02-2004 14:32									#21
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This may seem obvious to you Monk, but I'll make it clear for everyone anyway just in case.

Solar plants eliminate production pollution, and mass transit eliminates population pollution. One without the other can still lead to pollution in your cities. I am interested that you still needed mass transits in smaller cities, because the population pollution is normally based on city size after the discovery of automobile (?), and with only two citizens then I wouldn't expect pollution. Starlifter examined this at CFC a while back, and I'll find the thread for you in a moment.

[edit] I can't find the thread because CFC have got the search facility turned off again! If anyone can get onto CFC when their search is working, or has a link to this thread stored somewhere then please post it. [/edit]

Last edited by duke o' york on 12-02-2004 at 14:42

	12-02-2004 14:49									#22
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You mean this one, I think?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...s=&threadid=765

	12-02-2004 17:39									#23
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Yes, that would be it. Thanks okosling!

I remember that that was linked to from here more recently. Oops.

	12-02-2004 21:45									#24
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Very interesting link, okosling, and if I have understood it properly, then I may have stumbled across something new. For this game is Fundy with Hoover Dam at 85 techs. Perhaps Starlifter would undertake a new test to decide the following proposition.

Pollution is increased by the Global Warning message.

BTW, I was speaking a touch dramatically when I said the yellow shields came up in size 2 cities. There is only one size two city and it has no yellow triangles. They actually began at size 3 with one yellow and increase as the city population increases, though not one for one. This is for cities with a Solar Plant, size 3 and above.

The only additional factor is the "Scientist warn of Global Warning" message, which came a turn or so before this save.

Monk

Attachment: so_a1965.sav
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	12-02-2004 21:54									#25
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For comparison, here is a save from three turns later AFTER mass transits and the "Ice Caps Melt" message. Since I was only looking at the Solar Plant effect, little or nothing was done about the military situation. I did have some fun by cheating in the odd BB, just to watch the rain of Cruise Missiles.

Note that MassT rids the yellow triangles and the terrain changes.

Monk

Attachment: so_a1968.sav
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	13-02-2004 13:56									#26
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I'm afraid it's highly unlikely that Starlifter will do more testing on this, as he was last heard of (to the best of my knowledge) going out to Afghanistan with his unit in late 2002 (?). I hope that he's all right, and that he still finds some time to play Civ 2.

	13-02-2004 20:03									#27
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Thanks, doy, I did not know that. I join you in hoping all is well with him.

Monk

	13-02-2004 20:47									#28
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I have a friend I was talking to about Civ some years back. He apparently was playing without ever reading the manual.

He said, "It's a great game, but I have one problem with it"

I said, "What's that?"

He said, "Towards the end of the game, all your cities start to starve because the land changes to swamp and jungle."

it took a while before I asked, "do you use a lot of nukes in your games?"

He said, "Of course, it's the best way to conquer."

That explains it

	13-02-2004 20:55									#29
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Amazing to me how much pleasure this game brings to many people with varying knowledge and play styles.

Monk

	16-02-2004 12:39									#30
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In some of my games I had two global warmings. My pop went down - but I managed to fight it.
I built tons of engineers (about 7 per city) to fight the global warming. They irrigated the swamps and jungles and changed desert to plains and grassland.
Since I had tons of money (I trades like an idiot) I bribed dozens of AI engineers (about 800 to 2000 gold per unit - who cares?) to help me.
Most of the new built engineers founded new cities, and the bribed ones built roads and railroads and improved the land.
After about 20-25 turns my pop was greater than before - and the AI was knocked down by "nature" ...