03-02-2004 05:44									#1
	Choppers and Needlejets Enter the AD-FREE zone

I've been reading posts and people seem to think choppers are really powerful. I really don't see what the use of choppers are but I havn't really tried them. When do use choppers, where do you use needlejets? What sort of situations do each excel in.
Thanks for any advice,

	03-02-2004 05:59									#2
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Choppers can be used to attack multiple targets as long there's fuel and hitpoints left. I like to use them to clear the terrain of enemy units so my units can advance farther and quicker. They're great for clearing out enemy bases too.

Needlejets has longer range and can be used in several ways depending on how you design them. Intercepters can be used to help defend bases and units in surrounding areas by intercepting attacking aircrafts before they damage your units. You can set up bombing runs and so on. I'm not sure if choppers can attack needlejets while they're in the air.

I'm still devising my own tactics with those and I'm sure others have something to contribute

	03-02-2004 06:03									#3
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Helicopters cannot attack needlejets in flight unless they possess the Air Superiority ability.

The multiple-attack-in-one-turn capability of helicopters is incredibly useful. Often I end up having helicopters for attack and then needlejet interceptors.

	03-02-2004 06:16									#4
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Needles have to fly out and attack, next turn return home, turn after attack again... with needles you only get an attack every 2 turns (unless attacking from a base tile).

Choppers can attack many times in one turn and then return to a base.

The advantage of Needles over choppers is range - a fission needle can strike at 10 tiles, while a chopper can only strike at 5 tiles and still return home (unless the attacked object is a base which is captured by ground troops).

The advantage of choppers over needles is they can deal a HELL OF A LOT more damage especially when mopping up units poorly equiped to defend, they also have far greater range if your willing to take damage, a fission chopper can fly 40 tiles across the map (it'll arrive 3/4 dead so need recovery time, but it's a good way to reinforce outposts or distant allies), a fission needle has a travel range of a mere 20 tiles, enough to cross your empire.

Most players either use choppers all the time, or use mostly choppers and have a few best-weapon needles for long range strike weapons - like the needles might be used to knock out the strong attackers at a distant base, once the base has been captured the neighbouring enemy bases can be easily crushed by choppers so the role of post-MMI needles is limited indeed.

One exception is for very cheap aircraft, sometimes I build numerous fission impact needles (I call them Freedom Flitters), the role of these is to fly into enemy territory and kill formers & stray military units, because they are operating at long range and take considerable damage killing plasma units they work better as needles than choppers. My freedom flitters quickly become redundant post-fusion which is when I generally move to pure chopper airforce with missiles to take out really hard targets.

	03-02-2004 07:00									#5
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Needles are great, but essentially become obsolete once you have choppers. They're still worth it though.

	03-02-2004 13:02									#6
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quote: Freedom Flitters

Total Annihilation player?

	03-02-2004 14:53									#7
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Theres a freedom flitter in TA ?

Well, I did use to call it Freedom Fighter, IIRC the ARM light fighter, but thats not why I called it the Freedom Fighter, mainly because I use it when I'm the underdog, but ofcourse they dont actually fight for freedom, just kill formers and stuff. The name makes it more respectable - I give the pilot bottom of the line obsolete hardware, the least I can do is make it sound like they are fighting for a good cause.

Then in a succession game another player renamed my Freedom Fighters to Freedom Flitters, and I had to admit the name was good because a 4-1-10 does get swatted rather easily, so it stuck but I bet the pilots hate it.

	03-02-2004 23:27									#8
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Blake covered most of what I would have to say but there is one last use for needles and that is to serve as aircover for ground troops in the open or to interdict their supply lines without destroying the roads so you may use them later)

A normal ground troop can attack a chopper but you must have the SAM ability to hit at a plane . .. so the usefulness of this tactic lasts for as long as it takes for an opponent to start using SAM ground troops ( which can make mincemeat of all planes) or interceptors ( where you have some survivability if the covering plane is also an interceptor).

Oh and you can build chopper interceptors but they take damage if they end a turn outside a base and are not as good as plane based interceptors for hitting anything beyond 3 tiles from the home base ( range of 8 and making 1 attack means an effective range of 3 tiles). They die even if they win a close battle since there is 30% damage on the crash-land.

Once I get MMI I would say that choppers rule . . the multiple attack is king-- My only planes might be
1. interceptors
2. a few cheapies for interdiction duty or to send on suicide runs to destroy roads or infrastructure (although choppers are better at suicide runs if they can make their multiple attacks.
3. Perhaps a few high-morale best weapon NJ's for hitting at hardpoints

	04-02-2004 00:08									#9
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Flubber, what about missiles? Do you use them? I like to build tons of conventional missiles. They can be used to clear bases. Combined with missiles, choppers, and needlejets, my ground troops often rarely have to enter combat.

I've never used PBs, fungal, and tetonic missiles but I can imagine some possible tactics for those.

	04-02-2004 00:21									#10
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I'll add to Flubbers comments. Do not forget the enabling aspect of air power as well. USing them space by space to allow units that otherwise are hemmed in by Zones of Control is an advantage. The concept is simple a unit may move into a square occupied by teh same factions unit. Air units ignore ZOC's. Move an air unit, then move a ground unit, then move the air unit, gorund unit etc. until the ZOC is bypassed, thus negating interdiction. (probe units work as well for this)


As for discussions regarding missiles, I have found them more often than not to be too expensive for my tastes. If I absolutely need take a base I suppose I might, but other alternatives exist as well. (Namely probing to eliminate base defenses followed up by chop & drop of course if the base is meanignless read no SP's there are far more ruthless means to dispense with the irritation)

Last edited by Ogie Oglethorpe on 04-02-2004 at 00:47

	04-02-2004 00:30									#11
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quote: Originally posted by DataAeolus Flubber, what about missiles? Do you use them? I like to build tons of conventional missiles. They can be used to clear bases. Combined with missiles, choppers, and needlejets, my ground troops often rarely have to enter combat. I've never used PBs, fungal, and tetonic missiles but I can imagine some possible tactics for those.

Yes I use missiles but generally only if an opponent is creating some "hard" targets. Most of my previous comments are related mainly to the pre-fusion era. Once fusion power, PBs and other missiles enter play, the dynamic can change but I still find choppers form the bulk of my aerial forces

Missiles can be hugely effective but they die . If I can produce elite shard ( weapon 13) choppers, I would tend to build more of those rather than a lot of missiles. The chopper has the flexibility to kill stuff on the way in even if it is on a suicide mission .

It really depends on the target, range to target , and what I am trying to accomplish. I have made limited use of PBs but have not used fungal or tectonic.

	04-02-2004 00:54									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe . USing them space by space to allow units that otherwise are hemmed in by Zones of Control is an advantage. The concept is simple a unit may move into a square occupied by teh same factions unit. Air units ignore ZOC's. Move an air unit, then move a ground unit, then move the air unit, gorund unit etc. until the ZOC is bypassed, thus negating interdiction. (probe units work as well for this)

RE ZOCs-- I usually have a probe team in my ground forces for getting around blockades-- on the other side --my usual interdiction attempts to block roads such that an opponent has to go Off road and use up their movement. If an opponent has a complete web of roads , interdiction is almost impossible . . . if I have enough units to create solid walls of units and plan that they will survive, my opponent is in deep trouble anyway

I'll also adopt OO's comments on missiles. While I do build some, I also find them too expensive for a one use weapon in most instances. When I build them I usually have a very specific use in mind.

	04-02-2004 02:02									#13
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Agreed, I normally use probes on the ground as well. But sometimes when you have the Hunter Seeker or are immune to probe actions you may have cause to get around ZOC's. Noodles and Choppers being the ultimate mobile response can get you around that odd annoying unit.

Even when you have immunity from probing tho', regardless probes are still a mainstay of a good ground force for their ability to reduce static base defenses, steal cash etc.

	04-02-2004 08:35									#14
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Wow thanks for all the replies they really helped. I was wondering however about using air superiority or AAA on ground units. I'm guessing there is no real point to using AAA is good for garrisons with high defense where air sup would make those units use battles vs air units due to low attack values on garrisons. But air superiority would be good for attacking ground units with high attack values. Is this pretty much the circumstances you apply those abilities in?

	04-02-2004 10:15									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Kaboth Wow thanks for all the replies they really helped. I was wondering however about using air superiority or AAA on ground units. I'm guessing there is no real point to using AAA is good for garrisons with high defense where air sup would make those units use battles vs air units due to low attack values on garrisons. But air superiority would be good for attacking ground units with high attack values. Is this pretty much the circumstances you apply those abilities in?

If I understand you correctly above, then I disagree.


AAA units, combined with good armor, Aerospace Center, Sensor, tachyon if you got it, and good morale equals a lot of dead choppers. If your units have 6 or better armor and are in well built bases, your units tend to survive missile hits as well.

In my experience (SP), once I have the ability to get AAA, I will add it to my new-build defensive units.

I try to have my units inside bases where they get all the good defensive modifiers and make any attacks on them very expensive (if successful at all) for the enemy.

I prefer killing my enemy's air power in their own bases. Rather than in the open field. So I do not use air superiority much. One of the things I have disliked so far is that, I have not yet figured out how to keep my air superiorty unit from launching once a nearby unit is air attacked. If I have these units, I want them to launch in the attack phase, not defense phase.


One of the things not mentioned yet that I like about choppers (in addition to the things already said by others) is that they can attack a target and then return back to a safe base for protection in the same turn. Needle jets, once they attack they are stuck until the next turn and are vulnerable to counter attack enemy inteceptors.


Mead


PS

Best thing about Choppers
Multiple attack, Multiple attack, Multiple attack

Worst thing about Missiles
One hit their dead, One hit their dead, One hit their dead, perhaps OK for those superhard targets, but One hit their dead.

	04-02-2004 15:06									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Crimson Sunrise Helicopters cannot attack needlejets in flight unless they possess the Air Superiority ability.

Not quite. Try it when the Chopper is sitting in a base (It need not start its turn there). I've only experienced this once, and haven't had a chance to replicate it yet (Simply because I haven't been attacked with Noodles since), but I'm fairly confident it's not a bug that was limited to that single PBEM game.

	04-02-2004 15:31									#17
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I generally like to use SAM rovers, there are two reasons to like ground based SAM units:
A) They dont fly out and die by intercepting a penetrator with better weapons.
B) They can be upgraded to SAM from normal, and vice-verca.

So usually I upgrade an old impact rover or two to a SAM Impact rover just to mop up enemy needlejets over my territory.

I like missiles quite a lot, they are particullary good when fighting enemies with superier technology, sometimes it's even worth it (but very expensive) to use fision missiles to destroy fusion units. Note: Self destruct usually does far more damage than attacking, this is true of missiles and all units with a weapon strength of 10+.

	04-02-2004 21:32									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Blake I like missiles quite a lot, they are particullary good when fighting enemies with superier technology, sometimes it's even worth it (but very expensive) to use fision missiles to destroy fusion units. Note: Self destruct usually does far more damage than attacking, this is true of missiles and all units with a weapon strength of 10+.

If I was to send a missile against an enemy base, it automatically blow up so I assume this self-destruct tactic would be effective only against units out in the open?

	04-02-2004 21:36									#19
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Yes units inside a base are protected from self destructing units.

OTOH, units inside a base make it (the base) a fair target for 50% popuation reduction via nerve gas attack.

	04-02-2004 22:16									#20
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*gasp* you would blatantly gas innocent civilans?

I've never used nerve gas although I did build some X-units to be used against the aliens. But in the end I never got around to using them.

You know, sometimes after few hours of playing and under influence of whatever, I'd start wonder what if this is like that book Ender's Game and that while to me I'm playing a game, there are people dying somewhere else on a Chiron-like planet.

	04-02-2004 23:35									#21
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Mead has it right

AAA is to defend and an AA troop in a base can be tough to kill-- If in the open, the AA troop is usually killed more easily by ground forces

SAM is for killing planes and blakes point about SAM rovers is a good one. O also like SAM rovers since a very cheap one can take out pretty much any plane ( unless the opponent goes to the added expense of armour on planes but thats a losing proposition since a SAM rover that can easily kill it will still be much cheaper)

Always remember that it is pretty tough to have a unit with even " good" chances of survival outside its own territory/sensors against a tech equivalent opponent when you consider to possibilities of air, land, native , artillery, probe control and self-destruct tactics.

Thats why so many players focus on attacking and eliminating the opponents forces rather than trying to build units that can survive in the open-- The gap between attack values and defense values makes defense outside a base pretty difficult. You can build stacks of units with aircover or try to give units things like ECM AND AA but then it become more and more cost effective for an opponent to self-destruct a unit or two and then easily kill the rest.

	05-02-2004 02:46									#22
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quote: Originally posted by DataAeolus You know, sometimes after few hours of playing and under influence of whatever, I'd start wonder what if this is like that book Ender's Game and that while to me I'm playing a game, there are people dying somewhere else on a Chiron-like planet.

Is that 'whatever' a psi drug, or is there a set of loose lips somewhere around here?

It's bad enough that we have a 'Hive' faction in SMAC (at least Yang doesn't look like a Queen anyway), but now we may have people talking outside of battle school. How are we going to keep getting enough new recruits if we blow our cover story?

	05-02-2004 14:37									#23
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Two items to add. You can use a needle-jet as a police unit, though by that time you are usually producing units with the "non-lethal" special ability for that. I've used needle-jets, especially during rapid conquest/expansion phases, as emergency garrisons until I get a trance scout built.

If you have an aeronautical complex, it works as a perimeter defense against air attacks. Add AA units to a base with aeronautical complexes and you can have a unit that requires multiple attacks to kill.