04-02-2004 04:04									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi If we are stereotyping feminists then we need some definitions. Who counts as moderate, and who counts as extreme?

Mainstream feminism advocates for goals that many women can reach more easily than in the past -- even at the same time those ungrateful women trash mainstream feminism. Mainstream feminism advocates such diabolical, evil ideas like: enfranchisement, equal employment opportunities, equal salary/wage, birth control, protection from abusive spouses or from other male family members, and so forth.

Most of those things just mentioned are sought after even by women who do not realize that it was feminism that has made these more possible than in past decades.




Extreme feminism is basically espousing hatred for men, believing that marriage is a form of slavery, and that all consensual sex is rape, and other loony, dumb ideas.

	04-02-2004 04:26									#62
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Marriage was a form of slavery, oringinally.

	04-02-2004 04:50									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi How about a feminism that affirms a woman's decision to have children and raise them at home?

The day women are expected to work in the factory rather than to raise their children, such a feminism will be useful. Feminism (and "masculinism" or whatever it is called) is about changing the role of men and women in society.

For example, many men suffer from the overall expectation that they shouldn't be the ones raising kids. In this regard, Blackice has a point (though he spoils it with masculinazism ).

A feminist doesn't have to reject the right to become a housewive. She has to reject the obligation (or at least the expectation) to do so.

	04-02-2004 05:04									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Moderate = Men and women should have equal voting rights! Equal oppritunity! Equality! Extreme = MEN START SO MANY WARS AND IF WE AWERE TO JUST KILL THEM ALL WE COULD FINALLY LIVE INT OTAL PEACE AND HARMOY!!1!1!!!!11! Lunacy = Every time a man looks at a woman, he's raping her...in his MIND!!!!

That last one sounds a lot like you in the A/C thread about babe threads...

	04-02-2004 05:05									#65
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker That last one sounds a lot like you in the A/C thread about babe threads...

	04-02-2004 05:09									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion dip, you seem to be forgetting that so called "consentual" sex is always sex forced upon the female by the male, by means so violent she won't even admit to herself she was forced!

I think that's just you.

But there is some truth either way. Women may be deemed as being more emotional and empathic in the workplace, but their workplace politics is beyond comprehension, making men just avoid the whole catty infighting. I've seen it too often. Women are flawed too!

And of course women visit the doctor more often. Their 'plumbing' is considerably more complicated and prone to problems than that of the male...

	04-02-2004 05:10									#67
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quote: She has to reject the obligation (or at least the expectation) to do so.

Agreed. However, I think that this proves an excellent point to split moderate from extreme feminists. Extreme feminists would reject a woman who desires to be a stay at home mom and raise her children.


Mr. Fun:

quote: Mainstream feminism advocates such diabolical, evil ideas like: enfranchisement, equal employment opportunities, equal salary/wage, birth control, protection from abusive spouses or from other male family members, and so forth.

So there can be no Catholic feminists?

	04-02-2004 05:13									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So there can be no Catholic feminists?

Birth control can be about contraception (which is accepted by most Christians AFAIK). Besides, many Christians, including Catholics, have understood the right to abortion is a good thing. Individuals can take the freedom to ignore some of the pope's demands.

	04-02-2004 05:20									#69
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Eh, you had a much better argument available.

Try again.

quote: Besides, many Christians, including Catholics, have understood the right to abortion is a good thing.

They are sadly misinformed, and ill-taught if this is the case.

quote: Individuals can take the freedom to ignore some of the pope's demands.

And the pope can excommunicate them.

I ask again, are birth control and contraception synonymous?

	04-02-2004 05:26									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I ask again, are birth control and contraception synonymous?

Nope. Birth Control takes several forms, and contraception is one of them. In backward times (i.e in the 1950's), any form of birth control was forbidden, this means women could not legally have contraception. Favoring contraception was enough at that time for being for "birth control".
Still today, those who oppose Birth Control do oppose both contraception and abortion. Those who favor Birth Control can favor one or both possibilities (but any sensible person supports both, given the shortcomings of contraception only).

Fundamentally, Birth Control is about having sex that isn't bound to be reproductive.

	04-02-2004 05:42									#71
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Actually, Spiffor, I would have to disagree. Wouldn't birth control necessarily be something that occured before conception?

	04-02-2004 05:51									#72
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Actually, Spiffor, I would have to disagree. Wouldn't birth control necessarily be something that occured before conception?

Nope, that's something that occured before birth. Edit: this includes the pre-conception period as well.

	04-02-2004 05:52									#73
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Oh, you're right sorry.

	04-02-2004 05:53									#74
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quote: Nope, that's something that occured before birth.

So abortion is nothing more than a form of birth control?

	04-02-2004 05:57									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So abortion is nothing more than a form of birth control?

Abortion is a form of birth control, but there is something more to that.

Abortion can cause depressions to the aborting mothers, and it's most often a longlasting trauma. Besides, abortion can induce really hard pain to a living being (the foetus) when performed at a too late stage of development.

Abortion is a difficult form of birth control. The less we have to use it the better. But the right to abort is infinitely better than the alternative.

	04-02-2004 06:00									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So abortion is nothing more than a form of birth control?

No, but abortion is birth control (controlling birth...), among other things.

Things can fit into multiple categories, you know

	04-02-2004 06:02									#77
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You still have another example of how a Catholic could be a feminist and faithful to the church, even given your definition of birth control, and of feminism

I'm surprised no one has come up with this yet.

	04-02-2004 06:06									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi You still have another example of how an Orthodox Catholic could be a feminist, even given your definition of birth control. I'm surprised no one has come up with this yet.

Othodox Catholics tend to support the old status quo, at least in France, where we are slowly departing from a catholic society. As such, the older the days, the more catholic they were. Of course, in the old days, women were reproduction factories treated like crap, but the society was catholic.

	04-02-2004 06:08									#79
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What about the distinction of 'artificial' contraception?

Could a woman be a feminist and resort to natural family planning?

	04-02-2004 06:13									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Could a woman be a feminist and resort to natural family planning?

You mean, have the guy leave the lass' vagina before the ejaculation?
There is nothing feminist in it, because only the man has the power to leave (and many do not). The woman has no power over her own family planning.

The most important felinist claim was "my body belongs to me". If there was a natural form of contraception that was completely under the woman's power, such as the contraceptive pill or the sterilizer, than a feminist could argue for such a form of contraception.

But remember any form of contraception is an abomination to God. Remember Onan.

	04-02-2004 06:18									#81
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quote: You mean, have the guy leave the lass' vagina before the ejaculation?

I'm thinking fertility cycles, abstaining during a woman's fertile period.

Completely under a woman's power in having sex only with her consent.

	04-02-2004 06:55									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi And the pope can excommunicate them.

Gosh, what a scary prospect.

If they were excommunicated, they'd be in good company.

	04-02-2004 08:17									#83
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Good, what a penis pity party we have going on in here (well, before the abortion threadjack).

	04-02-2004 08:25									#84
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Good, what a penis pity party we have going on in here (well, before the abortion threadjack).

Gynophobia and vagina dentata.

The threadjack is Kenobi One Note, his favourite song is 'Monotonous'.

	04-02-2004 08:29									#85
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom vagina dentata.

No need to bring Ann Coulter into this thread.

	04-02-2004 08:34									#86
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quote: Originally posted by GePap No need to bring Ann Coulter into this thread.

Aaaaahhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!


Nurse, the screens!!!!!!!!!!!!!

	04-02-2004 09:03									#87
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Marriage was a form of slavery, oringinally.

And your key operative word is "originally" -- ergo, no longer the case.

	04-02-2004 09:09									#88
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quote: Kenobi One Note,

I have many notes. Which one would you like to play first?

	04-02-2004 09:17									#89
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Before you're allowed to play any tunes, you're gonna get rid of that stupid santa cap.

	04-02-2004 09:17									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Could a woman be a feminist and resort to natural family planning?

Yes. Feminism is about choices. Feminists can be homemakers, if they choose to be. They just don't want to have to be forced to be.