03-02-2004 19:15									#1
	Another deity game Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I never was any good at deity, but I thought I'd give it another shot, after reading the terrific thread about "early landing games".
I was however greatly disapointed at how aggressive my rival civs are. I tried every trick out of the book giving money and tech.
It just doesn't work. I'm constantly replacing units instead of rushing to a tech lead.
How do I get my caravans to my rivals quick enough?
I read about ship chains to move them quicker, but ships are expensive
The game is now at 1860 and I'm still only second in tech.
I still think I can win the game but I just can't understand what I'm doing wrong.

	03-02-2004 19:25									#2
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Are you playing with the MGE version (Multiplayer Gold Edition)? The AI is far more aggressive in its diplomacy with that version, but otherwise the normal game isn't very different.
But no matter what version you have, then you should still be able to win, and in style too! I suggest that you visit the Great Library at the top of this page as a starting point, and then if you need any clarification feel free to ask again! Best of luck!
To solve one of your problems, then build (or capture) Leonardo's workshop! You'll never need to replace a unit again, and can spend all of the taxes on science or celebrations to grow your cities.

	03-02-2004 21:50									#3
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̀'m playing MGE.
Like I said, I think I still can win, But I just can't understand why those guys keep picking at me. I'm at war with 3 nations now. I did absolutely nothing to anger them. Gave 'em tech they asked for. There is no way I give them 650 gold to be sneak attacked the next turn. And I need that reserve to bribe attacking units or to buy other stuff.
I'm now considering a short war to take out two or three of them. That will take me high on the powergraph I think. I can forget appeasement after that I guess

	03-02-2004 22:07									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

Where are you on the power graph right now? The AI will usually become pretty hostile when you're #1, and as noted, MGE is much more so than the single-player game. And if your reputation is bad, you'll have a tough time overcoming the hostility.

Usually an AI civ will offer a ceasefire when you capture a city and then encounter any of their units on the same turn. That can allow you to pick off cities, end the war, and retreat to safety before they sneak attack.

You don't have to send your caravans to foreign cities. Deliver to home cities if necessary, forgoing the double delivery bonus. Deliver to your own cities on other continents and you'll get that double bonus. Deliver to cities next door, connected to the caravans' city by road, and you'll get increased ongoing trade bonus.

	03-02-2004 22:59									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Playing MGE seems much more difficult for the diplomacy part. Did you build Marco Polo or get embassies early? Did you ever back-stab anyone, or break a treaty or alliance? After making peace, did you visit them often with little gifts, or just a few times? More visits with single gifts seems to outweigh fewer visits with a lot of gifts. If your research is going well you should be hitting a tech every other turn at least - aside from NucFission, I tend to give them all away. Don't give money if they do not demand it; try to keep your treasury pretty low with RushBuying so there is not much to demand.

The other area you must master to really do well is trade. Read Solo and Samson's articles in the GL about it, and switch to making caravans almost exclusively after getting Trade. A ship chain is worth the cost if you can get a camel to another continent half the map away in the same turn. Do everything you can to pump up your SSC, but then switch to increasing the number and size of your secondary cities and their trade routes.

	04-02-2004 11:15									#6
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Ah, thats something I didn't do: Colonies.
That 'll make a difference.
I'm just 5th in the powergraph. At best I've been 3rd.
I'm 1st in literacy. Second most advanced.
I started off quite good and have all the necessary wonders (Col, CO, ST and NC) in a SSC. I even got Mike's
It seems though I did something wrong in the mid-game. I guess because I didn't get my trade up. Caravans were too long on their way or attacked.
It's just a pity I didn't get statue of liberty. That would make it easier to start a war in fundy and switch back to demo. That way I could control the AI's aggression somewhat better.

NB
I didn't start any war till 1500 or so. I was really pissed off when the Indians took one of my cities. So I kicked them out of it. Babylonians and Russians had declared war at me before that without reason. My rep was "spotless" at the time

Last edited by Marcel I on 04-02-2004 at 11:21

	04-02-2004 12:35									#7
	Re: Another deity game Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Marcel I I The game is now at 1860 and I'm still only second in tech.

This sounds like you haven't got your SSC working at top speed.

Did you get Collossus, Copernicus and Newton? Have you built library and university (and research centre if you've reached that point)? Did you celebrate your SSC up to at least size 20? Have you got three good trade routes. Are you getting arrows from every city tile?

I suspect you've missed a few of these, but if not, then you need to build and deliver many caravans.

That's my 2 bits worth anyway.

RJM at Sleeper's

Edit - I've just seen your later post in which you mention the SSC wonders. (Makes mental note to read the whole thread before hitting the reply button!

	04-02-2004 14:46									#8
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

You have to have trade routes (to and) from your SSC! This will benefit you through out the whole game, so the earlier you get them the better. If you're that far advanced, then build an airport in the SSC and use it to airlift in freights from large cities on other continents with decent trade. That will pay for everything pretty quickly, especially if you can get a demanded Uranium.
In fact, regardless of the size of your city, if you find a Uranium supplier then buy the freight! You can keep it until the home city is large enough to generate a decent pay-off and deliver it to the SSC.

Other piecemeal tips to follow....

	04-02-2004 14:58									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

I postponed building happiness improvements because I got shakespeare's in my SSC. It was hard to get my city celebrating that way it seems. That must've been one of the things I didn't think of quick enough.
I'm somewhat further in the game now.
The spanish stole spaceflight from me and built apollo. I'm the only one with plastics this far. But I'm low on cash. So rushing parts isn't easy. Is switching to fundy the best way to go now?

	06-02-2004 19:36									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

don't switch to Fundy before you get all the SS techs - use camels from the smaller cities into dummy WoWs in the larger cities - switching from a WoW to a SS part is free - did you build Superhighways? they are incredibly good science boosters

Stu

	06-02-2004 20:30									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

How many cities do you have.

In most of my games, I've beaten the other civs back to the stone age by the time my ship is ready to fly.

	09-02-2004 07:48									#12
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Rah launches spaceships?





From your posts, I thought you didn't get past MobWar...

	12-02-2004 20:00									#13
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I didn't have much cities: About 10 on a normal (random) map.
I did lose the space race by the way. I was the first to build a minimal ship. My rivals launched later but with faster ships (note: build faster ships ) . And I didn't have time enough to destroy their capitals.
I started the same game from scratch (I know it's a bit like cheating because you know where your rivals are )
I did win that game even when I missed ST AND Newton's. I build about 15 cities. And protected my borders so the AI couldn't steal spaceflight in time.
By the time they started their ships I was nearing completion and started conquest. (I was in Fundy, but they declared war. Who am I to pass up such an opportunity ).
All in all, I seem to get the hang of it now. Only micromanaging trade is still a bit difficult for me. It's still hard to see how anyone could get up colonies and profitable trade routes before AD.
I guess I'll start another game this weekend to see if I really have learned some things

	12-02-2004 22:33									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Good luck with your new game. If you can get Ike's College for the extra science and ST, in your SSC, to allow for increased city size, you should have nooo problem. Have fun.

Monk

	13-02-2004 14:20									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Marcel I It's still hard to see how anyone could get up colonies and profitable trade routes before AD. I guess I'll start another game this weekend to see if I really have learned some things

One of the factors that is important is the number of trade arrows available in your starting position. A rivered silk tile as part of a 4 special site gets things humming. After that avoid researching anything you don't need or that you can get from an AI civ. Celebrate quickly and get those trade routes operating early.

Of course this is all theoretical - I've never actually landed before AD 1800

RJM at Sleeper's

	13-02-2004 14:55									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

By the way
Does the size of the map make any difference in how early you can launch your spaceship ?

	13-02-2004 21:51									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

There are supposed to be "compensating factors" in the trade calculations that give you less gold and beakers for longer deliveries on a large map. In general, though, having watched several EL games compared on Large versus Medium maps, the terrain around your start has the larger influence that a bigger map. The larger map does allow for larger delivery bonuses, despite the formula difference, but you have to go a long way pretty fast: longer ship chains or airlift.

	13-02-2004 22:35									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Marcel I It's still hard to see how anyone could get up colonies and profitable trade routes before AD.

I fully agree. I've seen so much commentary urging people to get three trade routes in their capital/SSC as early as possible, but neither the delivery bonus nor the ongoing trade bonus is significant until the cities are producing a decent amount of trade. Even with multipliers for demand, foreign civ, foreign continent, and pre-navigation, if the number you're multiplying is negligible, the product is still negligible. I use all early camels for wonder-building.

	14-02-2004 02:25									#19
	Support Apolyton

While it is true that getting the early WOWs is important, a demanded offshore (different continent number) delivery for a size 5 celebrating SSC can easily bring in more than 200-250g + an equal amount of beakers. You can use the gold to buy the Wonder and the extra science is invaluable.

Get Marco Polo, maps, and build boats to make the delivery. Look at some of Solo's games. This works.

Monk

	14-02-2004 03:09									#20
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To get 200g in the early game, with 3x for demand, times 2x for foreign civ, times 2x for foreign continent, times 2x(?) for early period, you've still got to have enough trade and distance so that [combined city trade * (d+10)] equals about 400. That can happen even with just a size-5 city, but by the time you can pull that off, aren't you probably going to want to have built several Wonders? I'm talking about the period before you can make many deliveries like that.

	14-02-2004 05:22									#21
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debeest,

I like to look at this differently. The point is not about making single deliveries, but to create a trade based economy. In the beginning 2 triremes and 4 caravans will be enough to start. That´s 280 shields which could also buy a small wonder earlier. But I don´t think any wonder (except MPE which is needed to start trade effectively) is needed so much a few turns earlier. These first deliveries to the AI may not bring more than 120 to 200g each (my own cities being at size 3), but this allready pays for the next triremes and caravans and so on. The next deliveries will be higher and often hit the science cap and bring a continuous surplus. The science created by the deliveries also allows to reduce the science rate in favour of income. At the time I complete my science wonders I usually have accumulated delivery bonuses of 3000 to 4500g and most of my cities have at least one trade route.
So if you ask me what is more urgent, starting the trade economy or the wonder building I will always favour trade.

Zenon

	14-02-2004 05:41									#22
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Don't want to hijack the thread, but --

Early on, it's hard to deliver caravans that are worth their cost. The caravan costs 50 shields to build, or on the order of 125g to rushbuild, and if you turn it into a Wonder its value is about 200g. So that's the opportunity cost if you deliver the caravan instead of converting it.

To exceed (100g + 100 sci) early in the game, you need a lot of multipliers all working together. Even if you have all of the best likely multipliers, as described above, you still need [combined city trade * (d+10)] exceeding 200 to get a 100g delivery bonus. (And that's assuming the early-period multiplier is 2; I haven't got the info here, and I don't remember whether it's 1.5 or 2.)

When you can deliver caravans for more than (100g + 100 sci), it's worth it. I'm just saying that most deliveries will be worth less, and in that case, the caravan is worth more as Wonder-building materials.

People also emphasize the importance of the trade routes themselves, as opposed to the delivery bonuses. At a certain point they're tremendously valuable, but early on, trade bonuses are usually negligible. No point delivering them real early. That's all I'm saying.

	14-02-2004 12:03									#23
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quote: Originally posted by debeest Don't want to hijack the thread, but -- Early on, it's hard to deliver caravans that are worth their cost. The caravan costs 50 shields to build, or on the order of 125g to rushbuild, and if you turn it into a Wonder its value is about 200g. So that's the opportunity cost if you deliver the caravan instead of converting it. snip>>> People also emphasize the importance of the trade routes themselves, as opposed to the delivery bonuses. At a certain point they're tremendously valuable, but early on, trade bonuses are usually negligible. No point delivering them real early. That's all I'm saying.

If by delivery you mean to one of your cities, or if by real early you mean pre2000bc, then, maybe I would agree.

But that's not what I specified when I said an offshore AI. I suggested taking a look at some of Solo's games. Here is a quote from him that bears on this...

quote: The trireme made contact with the Japanese in 2300 and the Aztecs in 2250 while exploring the channel separating their continents. All AI but the purple civ had been found! In 2100, San Francisco was founded by another settler. By 1900, the 6 caravans for ST were ready and it was built. This is the earliest I have been able to do this so far in any game, and by the time contact was made with the Indians on their own island, located a bit west of the Japanese and Aztecs, Washington was already size 6 and its beads caravan was delivered to Delhi for an excellent payoff of close to 400 gold. This seemed like a fortune at this stage in the game, and provided much of the cash needed to pay for the aqueduct, harbor and sewer system, in order to keep the SSC celebration going continuously until size 21 was reached in 1000 BC.

He said it was a straight run from size 6 to 21, that's 750yrs. A delivery between 1900b and 1750b for 400g. I'd say that's pretty early and a decent ROI.

With early Republic or joining settlers to a Monarchy SSC +ST, getting size 5 in the SSC is not hard.

This is from a very valuable thread Solo started on Early Landing Games before the Comparrisons and the Guide. Look back to late 2002, early 2003 for some very good reading. Check this one out:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...298#post1524298

This is the thread the quote is from. But there are others in that time period. From that beginning, which placed a great emphasis on early Republic, to the many and varied stategies that evolved out of those endeavors, including the robust strategy of Zenon, trade has always been the centerpiece in all the approaches.

I hope this discussion is helpful. Early Landing Games became my favorite. I really enjoyed the puzzle aspect and their problem solving nature. Be careful, you can get hooked on these games.

Monk

	16-02-2004 22:06									#24
	Inflate your Upload Space

Marcel -- I'm certainly not one of the experts around here, but to me your biggest problem is number of cities.

If you're like I was, you have limited your approach to what you see the AI doing. DON'T!! Keep building and expanding constantly! Even without an ICS approach, you should be able to create <20/40/more> cities. Make sure you get an early happy wonder, then celebrate in a representative gov't for explosive growth.

This will give you a superior infrastructure of workers. Remember, a new settler costs you one population point = one worker. When that settler becomes a city, you get two workers back. (ICS takes this notion to the extreme, but a perfectionist approach can still use it to great advantage.)

Oh, and if you keep losing camels on long trips, you're not using the High Seas. Sending them overland without miltary escort is an exercise in frustration. (Even if they make it to their destination, demand will often change during a long trek.)

	18-02-2004 03:09									#25
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Yes, but thanks to the trade guide, changing demands is more predictable. Thanks to it's participants.

	18-02-2004 04:12									#26
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Screw spaceship, just build lots of howies and railroad through your enemies. They are toast.

	18-02-2004 15:21									#27
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Yup - Ozzy has a good point here. Once you realise that engineers can (and should) be used in enemy territory as well as your own then conquest becomes a lot easier. It is a good idea to give the target civ Railroad as soon as possible so that they can connect their cities and make the job of conquest a stroll. If you have enough offensive units of decent strength then you can roll along the AI's railroad and crush the defenders with ease. Howies, with 2 movement and their ability to ignore city walls, are best at this, and by the time they come into the game the AI should be all railroaded up and ready for a pounding. Always take a few engineers along with you, and some spies, so that you can fill in any gaps in the AI rail network, and so you can use the spies' ability to ignore ZOC to get around enemy units and only attack the AI cities. Sure, it's fun to wipe out the AI units, and occasionally necessary if they are in the way of the railroad to the next city, but you would be best going around them where possible, and killing them by capturing their home cities.

	18-02-2004 19:53									#28
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Yes, I can think of many games where I initially planned on a spaceship but then the AI would show their soft underbelly and it would be just too tempting. THe best is choosing the spot you will defend the turn prior to draw out all of their offensive units before you go in and wipe them clean.

	18-02-2004 19:54									#29
	Increase Your PM Length

I'm usually behind in tech when I play deity. They all declare war on me and trade tech amongst themselves. But once I get set loose a pack of howies the game is over in a few turns.

	18-02-2004 22:31									#30
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Ah, but just build the GL, and research what they aren't and it's easy to stay ahead. I used to do that, but now that we're more knowledgeable about trade, it's easy to out trade the AI and stay considerably ahead of them.

All you have to do is keep them in a state of war, and all their resources will be wasted building walls, barracks and armies. They will mimic your low science slider and their science will stagnate. It's easy to stay ahead.